Worrying Mahler Trends

[DavidW]

On the contrary, Mahler had less of today's veneration for the score because he was a practical musician, as opposed to later composers (and critics) who deign to transmit their holy writ from remote ivory towers. In the trenches, you fiddle with the score to make the performance as effective as possible, all things considered.

Your post presumes that the composer is incapable of writing a score that will lead to a good performance, and there scores need the interference of the conductor.  I strongly disagree, especially since we are talking about great composers and not say mediocre fops like Dittersdorf.

[DavidW]

I may be taking this in a sphere you did not intend (but I think it does relate to Cato's point).  I agree that definition is problematic here;  but what do Beethoven's painstaking work-throughs in his sketches mean, if not that he was aiming for (let's say) 'greater musical correctitude'?

He was aiming to make the music be what he wanted it to be.  Obsessive rewritings don't indicate that the music will be more 'correct'.  After all Bach wrote a cantata, what, every week?  Despite not fussing with his music to the extent that Beethoven he did, he still wrote what are considered some of the greatest masterpieces ever.  I don't see any kind of meaningful label of correctness here.  The quality of Beethoven's music might have suffered if he spent less time with it, but quality is not the same as correctness.

All right.  But . . . if we take a Beethoven symphony, and re-order the interior movements, have we made the piece somehow 'less correct'?  The fact that Mahler was 'searching for certainty' regarding the order of the movements in his own symphony, for instance . . . this is a difference in method worth reflecting on, and a certain reading of the adjective correct is probably involved.

Well that's exactly one of the issues that we have been discussing, in Mahler's 6th some conductors re-order the movements!  If there was some obvious sense of correctness, they wouldn't do that would they?  So no again there's no concept of correctness.  Authenticity perhaps, but not correctness.

[karlhenning]

I think you're insisting on a narrow reading of correct, but really, that's not important IMHO.

Separately, Mahler's no longer with us; but if he were, I know I should certainly trend towards worrying him 

[Opus106]

Check this curious outpost of civilization:

http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/



And you will find your answer, along with another Cato comment!   0:)

Thank you.

[Superhorn]

  DavidW, I know that the Stuttgart RSO is not a period instrument orchestra, but Norrington has been applying HIP beliefs about performance practice at their concerts, as well as with other non-period orchestras.
  Norrington has deluded himself into believing that any vibrato before well into the 20th century is inauthentic, but it's known that vibrato has been used for centuries,if probably less than our time.
  In his treatise on violin playing,Leopold Mozart actually criticized some violinists and other string players of his day for using EXCESSIVE vibrato !
  So much for Norrington's pet theories.
  I'm a child of my time. I grew up from the 60s on listening to strings use vibrato. Hearing vibratoless string playing sounds unnatural to me,whether it's "inauthentic" or not. It's the sonic equivalent of flat champagne to me.

[Lethevich]

I find Norrington to be at his best when being provocative. From the many negative things said all across the net regarding his vibrato theories, I would venture to suggest that his intention to throw a cat amongst the pidgeons has worked out fine... Whether I believe him to be "correct" or not (a person of his stature wouldn't just pluck a theory like this out of the air), I will be glad to be able to actually hear the results.

[Bulldog]

I'm a child of my time. I grew up from the 60s on listening to strings use vibrato. Hearing vibratoless string playing sounds unnatural to me,whether it's "inauthentic" or not. It's the sonic equivalent of flat champagne to me.

I also grew up listening to much string vibrato.  But in my case, the on-coming flood of minimal to no vibrato recordings was a god-send.  Now, when I'm hearing extensive vibrato I grit my teeth and feel a surge of toxin racing through my body (a slight exaggeration).

[eyeresist]

  DavidW, I know that the Stuttgart RSO is not a period instrument orchestra, but Norrington has been applying HIP beliefs about performance practice at their concerts, as well as with other non-period orchestras.
  Norrington has deluded himself into believing that any vibrato before well into the 20th century is inauthentic, but it's known that vibrato has been used for centuries,if probably less than our time.
  In his treatise on violin playing,Leopold Mozart actually criticized some violinists and other string players of his day for using EXCESSIVE vibrato !
  So much for Norrington's pet theories.
  I'm a child of my time. I grew up from the 60s on listening to strings use vibrato. Hearing vibratoless string playing sounds unnatural to me,whether it's "inauthentic" or not. It's the sonic equivalent of flat champagne to me.

Norr is probably incorrect to say there was NO vibrato, but from what I've read it used to be much more contentious, and was generally saved for special moments. Incidentally, in the famous story of Mahler asking for more vibrato, isn't it more likely he was asking for it at a particular moment, rather than throughout the whole symphony? I don't know the original anecdote, so don't know exactly what he's supposed to have said.

In Norrington's Stuttgart Brahms cycle (DVD only, AFAIA) the lack of vibrato is usually not very noticable, but there is a violin solo where he did permit vibrato, and either the soloist went over the top with it, or it just sounded garish in a "pure" tone context.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Now, when I'm hearing extensive vibrato I grit my teeth and feel a surge of toxin racing through my body (a slight exaggeration).

[Wanderer]

If only some singers would stop singing with excessive vibrato...