The Classical Style

[DavidW]

You have to understand that E.T.A. Hoffman died in 1822, so he had no knowledge of the music we most commonly think of as "romantic". Even Schumann and Chopin were but lads then. But Romanticism, as a movement in literature, was already in full swing and the composers that most fully fell in line with the movement's themes such the idealization of nature and emphasis on emotion as opposed to reason were Beethoven and Weber, and no doubt there are others whose names are but footnotes today. About Beethoven, Hoffman said "Beethoven's music sets in motion the lever of fear, of awe, of horror, of suffering, and awakens just that infinite longing which is essence of romanticism." Mozart and Haydn were the two composers who had a big influence on Beethoven and so Hoffman would have seen the seeds of Beethoven's romanticism in their work.

I follow you Mark, it's difficult to identify eras when you're in the middle of it, it's much easier to do it in hindsight.  But Hoffman did see the importance of the composers and that musical tradition was definitively changing.  Okay, cool.

[karlhenning]

Haydn was born in what was then, and still is today, Austria - in Rohrau (Niederösterreich).
I know M forever was of the opinion that Haydn was Hungarian, but then he thought of Austrians as Germans...so he lost me on that.

Mind you, Q, I don't have an opinion on the matter.

But it is at the least possible for a Hungarian to be born in Austria, of course.

[karlhenning]

I follow you Mark, it's difficult to identify eras when you're in the middle of it, it's much easier to do it in hindsight.

Sometimes, it isn't any easier later, but okay! 

[BachQ]

I know M forever was of the opinion that Haydn was Hungarian,

...... at which point it becomes factual ........

[Que]

Mind you, Q, I don't have an opinion on the matter.

Duly noted, Karl!

But it is at the least possible for a Hungarian to be born in Austria, of course.

True, if he would have been of Hungarian ethnicity. Because he was certainly an Austrian citizen, since Hungary did not exist as an independent state at the time. But I've never read anything to suggest that Haydn was an ethnic Hungarian, though there are theories that he was of Croatian ethnicity.

Now I come to think of it again, I believe M forever actually dubbed Haydn as a Croatian and not a Hungarian.
Funny stuff this is...

Q

[George]

Start with early works, I like that idea, I think maybe the early string quintet...

Yeah, the string quartets actually begin really early and really simple. There's also more of them so you get a slower progression. I picked them all up on Naxos (Eder) for super-cheap and haven't found it necessary to search elsewhere. 

[DavidW]

But Haydn took and started going to irregular rhythms, and phrases or irregular length, i.e. instead of 8 + 8 + 8, he would use 9 + 7 + 8, so this broke up what came to be viewed as rhythmic monotony. And the reason that a lot of people find "classical" era music boring is exactly that, there is a regularity to it that we tend to not get involved in.

Okay so I guess polyrhythms is not just an affectation of 20th century music then.  Is the difference simply a matter of degree that would make say Bartok sound so dramatically different from composers of the past?

So anyway when did Haydn start messing around with meter like this?  Say, out of his string quartets, are there any you can point to where you're like aha listen closely to this!

I like Mark's answer about what Hoffman thought Romanticism was. Clearly it was NOT what WE think of as Romanticism. And in his terms, he may very well have been right. After all, the "Young Werther" book by Goethe that is reputedly the early beginning of the literary Romantic movement was written <> 1771, and the Stürm und Drang movement in music was roughly around that time, before and after, in fact, and the popular notion that the two were connected may not be factual, but they DID both stem from a cultural phenomenon that was apparently widespread enough in Greater Germany at the time to affect both music AND literature. A common ancestor, as it were. 

Goethe and Storm and Stress both mark a proto-romantic movement, okay gotcha.

[DavidW]

Now I come to think of it again, I believe M forever actually dubbed Haydn as a Croatian and not a Hungarian.
Funny stuff this is...

Q

I read that outside this forum, I think it's correct, Haydn is Croatian.  If you read the wiki you would believe that Haydn never even visited Croatia, but I think that the wiki is wrong.

[karlhenning]

How could it be wrong? Like everybody can edit it! 

[Que]

I read that outside this forum, I think it's correct, Haydn is Croatian.  If you read the wiki you would believe that Haydn never even visited Croatia, but I think that the wiki is wrong.

Well, I think I'll stick with nationality (Austrian).
Ethnicity is always kinda sticky. What if his father was of Austrian-German ethnicity and his mother Austrian-Croatian? Or if his grand parents were of mixed ethnicity (maybe throw in some Austrian-Hungarians)? And so forth and so on...

Q

[karlhenning]

Well, I think I'll stick with nationality (Austrian).
Ethnicity is always kinda sticky. What if his father was of Austrian-German ethnicity and his mother Austrian-Croatian? Or if his grand parents were of mixed ethnicity (maybe throw in some Austrian-Hungarians)? And so forth and so on...

None of that would be sticky (necessarily) for the man himself and his family.  But it may certainly be more than we can effectively sort out from this remove.

[Haffner]

Gurn would have a cow over the thought of Mozart / Haydn being "romantic."

LvB was the first "romantic" (with his Eroica Symphony).

I agree with this...the "Eroica" and op.59, definitely.

But one could assert there are plenty of "seminal" Romanticisms pre-"Eroica". Many works/movements of Haydn and Mozart...

[Florestan]

Regarding E. T. A. Hoffmann's quote, I personally find much more Sturm und Drang in Schumann, Weber or Mendelssohn than in some Haydn's works which are said to belong to that spirit.

[Haffner]

...... at which point it becomes factual ........

Based on the biographical/family tree information I have on Joseph Haydn, the Haydn family name was all over central Germany for centuries before Haydn's birth.

[Haffner]

So anyway when did Haydn start messing around with meter like this?  Say, out of his string quartets, are there any you can point to where you're like aha listen closely to this!

As in "wow check out those crazy polyrythms?" 

op.76, #5 second movement. Actually, the whole Quartet. Actually, the entirety of opp. 76, 74. 54, 50, 33, 20....

[Haffner]

I read that outside this forum, I think it's correct, Haydn is Croatian.  If you read the wiki you would believe that Haydn never even visited Croatia, but I think that the wiki is wrong.

No, I have 3 different biographies (and even many letter of) Joseph Haydn, and his family was definitely from Central Germany originally. The writer Greisenger estimates the Haydn name as being over 9 centuries old, mainstays in the Central, Roman Catholic region of Germany.

[Mark G. Simon]

Gurn:

Among all your vast collection of early 19th century music recordings, do you have any of E.T.A. Hoffmann's musical works? How do they stand up in terms of Romantic content?

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn:

Among all your vast collection of early 19th century music recordings, do you have any of E.T.A. Hoffmann's musical works? How do they stand up in terms of Romantic content?

Mark, it is with great sadness that I admit that I don't have a single one of his works   They aren't the sort of thing you run across every day, I guess. I have read a few of his essays though. If his music was as florid as his prose, I'd say he was fairly Romantic indeed.   (a little exaggerated, they wrote differently back then   )

[johnQpublic]

I have a cpo disc of ETA Hoffmann...let me do a little re-listening to confirm my hazy perception as a "Beethoven-lite" figure.

[DavidW]

Based on the biographical/family tree information I have on Joseph Haydn, the Haydn family name was all over central Germany for centuries before Haydn's birth.

Thanks for the clarification, my bad.