Thematic Development?

[monafam]

This is for composers and pretty much anyone else who understands music....

One aspect that I have trouble appreciating is the development of a specific piece.  While there are times when I can hear how the melody has been changed, it's difficult for me to pinpoint when/how the composer has developed his/her theme so to speak. 

How do I, the lay listener, gain a better understanding how the development is occurring?  How do I tell if the composer has developed it fully, or leaves something lacking? 

What do you listen for?   Sometimes I read books/reviews/posts where someone will point out how the composer developed (or did not develop) their material....I want to be able to do that better.

[71 dB]

People have their own way to listen but the only thing I care about is that the music makes structurally sense to me and sounds good. I don't think a piece of music can lack anything if it sounds great and is enjoyable.  0:)

[DavidW]

I have a feeling that this is one of these things that's easy to see by score, a little tricky to hear as precisely as you want unless you are alert and willing to listen many, many times.

[some guy]

Hmmm.

Listen to a lot of symphonies' first movements.

Then get a hold of Peter Schickele doing Beethoven's fifth as a ball game.

That will give you the sonata-allegro form, if nothing else.

(I once told my band teacher in high school that I didn't "get" the theme and variations form, of all things! He looked at me kinda funny and said, "Yes you do!" So I went home and listened to Tchaikovsky's Rococco Variations again. He was right. I did.)

[jochanaan]

As you listen, try to identify any appearance of the various themes.  Start, on one listen, with the opening theme; another time, listen for the second theme; yet again, you might trace an interesting countermotive.  Listen for how they change; ask yourself "Is the first theme related to the second?"  (This isn't an idle question.  In many sonata-form pieces, including several of Haydn's last and most famous symphonies, the "second subject" is exactly the same as the first but in a different key.)

Once you get good at identifying identical fragments, begin to listen for underlying note sequences, as for example the first three notes the choral sopranos sing in Mahler's Eighth Symphony.  (Those three notes, identical or varied in many ways, underlie nearly every bit of musical material in the whole symphony!)

And DavidW is right that this sort of thing is easier if you have the score to read.

[eyeresist]

Listening in the dark/ with your eyes closed is a good way to remove mental distractions and tune into the music.

Also bear in mind what Barbirolli said when someone in rehearsal asked where the secondary theme came in - he left that sort of thing for program writers to worry about.

[Joe_Campbell]

Listen to a lot of piano classical piano sonatas.

[Mozart]

I have to confess, even though its easy for me to hear when the development starts and ends, or even break down the little sections and hear some parts that I've recognized from the themes, I still wonder what is this all for? It was easier to enjoy when I didn't think so much.

[monafam]

I have to confess, even though its easy for me to hear when the development starts and ends, or even break down the little sections and hear some parts that I've recognized from the themes, I still wonder what is this all for? It was easier to enjoy when I didn't think so much.

I have certainly had those concerns.  For me, it's that sense of losing that "mysterious" or "magical" quality that I've come to enjoy, which I fear most.  That being said, I tend to take this approach to all areas, and I find I've gained more than I have lost.