GMG Listening Group — Stravinsky's Agon :: 22 May - 4 June 2011

[karlhenning]

Small note: although Craft's relationship with Stravinsky began in the 40s, he didn't move in with (and later near) the Stravinskys until later in the '50s. Craft stayed in New York, performing a lot of Stravinsky and Schoenberg (and recording some Stravinsky) and working with Auden on the Rake.
'

Thanks for the emendation . . . if I had the Walsh to hand, I might have avoided the mis-suggestion, but I was working from fleeting leafage in White, and Vlad.

[Herman]

Not in Stravinsky's case, I don't find;  for he really does write the music for "listening integrity," and he writes eminently danceable music.

Generally I like to emphasize that Stravinsky really intended much of his music as ballet music, and, coming from a stage family, he probably didn't see anything bad in that. If he had wanted to write symphonies he would have done so.

However, Agon is one the few ballet pieces that i can listen to without picturing the Balanchine moves. With the exception of the slow pas de deux, which sounds a little 'empty' to me as music per se.

Interesting comments about the 'genetics' of the mandolin, apostrophe.

[Harpo]

Common mistake.

I -- and dammit Cato -- almost never indulge in apostrophe. My ' comes from the humble symbol for foot, much closer to strophic than to apostrophic.
'

Do you mean "foot" as in 12 inches = 1 foot?     

or                  ?

or  poetic meter     /x    ?

[Harpo]

Well, this turned out to be a disappointment. But thank you to those who contributed.'

I think the discussion was more about whose recording was better, as opposed to what was going on in the actual piece.  If we do it again, let's try to stick to the composer and analysis of the selection. If you want to debate recordings, put that in a separate thread.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I agree. With the Stravinsky/Craft recordings, there is the matter as to whether, and, if so, how clearly the recordings document how the composer thinks the music should be performed. But discussing which record is better in that general sense is never interesting, although reading about someone's interaction with a performance is very often interesting.

I thought that this discussion was going to be about the music, following the score, and Agon is IS at his richest. For example, I am continually enthralled by the sort of tidepool microcosm in the tightly overlapping counterpoint of the Gaillarde, and how something so simple as the flute chorus in locked thirds lives in the same pool as the harp/mandolin canons is to me so visual. And how, in that respect, I wish I had a detailed sense of how IS and Balanchine interacted in the development of the piece.   
'

Sorry, I've nearly given up on writing to message boards; it just doesn't seem worth the effort any more. But I would have gotten into a discussion like this in years past, and your last sentence is especially pertinent. Agon does in fact stand alone well as a concert piece, but seeing the choreography gives the experience an entirely new dimension as you watch how Balanchine both complements and plays against IS's score.

Unfortunately it is impossible to see the entire ballet unless you can find a live performance. For all the CDs of the score, there is not one complete DVD available of the ballet itself, and there is nothing in the dance world like the frenzy to record every possible scrap of music that one finds in classical music circles. (At least some of Balanchine's choreography to Stravinsky can be easily had on DVD, including the Rubies section from Jewels and the Violin Concerto - both of these, however, are Balanchine settings after the fact rather than initial collaborations.) You can see a very little bit of Balanchine's Agon by Google Videoing "agon new york city ballet"; unfortunately the soundtrack doesn't use the IS score. And just about 2 minutes from the original staging (Diana Adams and Arthur Mitchell; the mixed-race pas de deux was quite daring for 1957) are easily available in the Kultur DVD documentary of Balanchine's career. However, anyone who is in New York next winter should keep January 20, 23, or February 9 free, as the NYC Ballet is performing the work complete. I've seen it three times already but wouldn't miss another opportunity, especially if Wendy Whelan is dancing the solo ballerina role.

[karlhenning]

I think the discussion was more about whose recording was better, as opposed to what was going on in the actual piece.  If we do it again, let's try to stick to the composer and analysis of the selection. If you want to debate recordings, put that in a separate thread.

I'll take ownership of this (neighborly) criticism.  I had intentions of discussing the guts of the score, but there hasn't really been the time.

Among other things, I have yet to send you a certain disc, Harpo.

All the same, those who have taken part, I thank you!

[Franco]

I still don't know where/what the errors are in the Stravinsky big box recording.



Oh well, it gave me an opportunity to listen to one of my favorite works with new ears, nothing to take for granted - and so, for me, this thread was better than most.

[karlhenning]

I still don't know where/what the errors are in the Stravinsky big box recording.

I remember expressing a degree of dissatisfaction with it, myself.

I don't recall anyone saying "errors."

[Guido]

Sorry, I've nearly given up on writing to message boards; it just doesn't seem worth the effort any more.

Why is this?

[Catison]

Why is this?

Our dear friend used to write long, significant posts, but unfortunately no one paid attention.  I enjoyed them, but it was hard for me to comment.  Long things take time to digest, and music forums are not about digestion, for better or worse.

I think we should have the sfz blog.  I would read it!

[karlhenning]

I think we should have the sfz blog.  I would read it!

Hear, hear!

[Kaiser]

Sorry if I'm a bit late to the party on this one, but I just recently bagged the Stravinsky Box (courtesy of recommendations here) and noticed this thread on Agon. I hadn't heard this piece before and just finished listening to it for the first time. Knowing that this was prepared for ballet the music certainly does strike me as being quite visually-oriented. I certainly have never seen what the ballet looks like, but it sounds like there are plenty of musical "cues" in this piece from which a choreographer could draw inspiration from (or was it the other way around? hmmmm...). As music it's really enjoyable - I'm especially drawn to some of the bassoon parts - beautiful stuff here! And, at the risk of winning the Captain Obvious award, it is quite apparent that a certain 20th Century composer whose last name begins with the letter "Z" (and whose albums were rarely filed in the classical bins) must have loved this piece! Is it a coincidence that Lumpy Gravy was also composed as a ballet? After listening to Frank's stuff for so long, it is fun to discover and appreciate something from "the source". Did I mention I really liked the bassoon parts? Cheers!
---------- Chris

[karlhenning]

: )

[Kaiser]

That video was awesome! Thanks James! 
----- Chris

[Brahmsian]

I guess it's time to revive this thread for 2010! 

[karlhenning]

I guess it's time to revive this thread for 2010! 

It is!

(And now, where was that score? . . .)

[Brahmsian]

Listening to Agon right now.  I remember not thinking very highly of it the first time I heard it.  Ever since, on each additional listen it has sounded better and better.

This scenario inevitably reminds me of a Seinfeld episode (Co-stan-za!), where women find George annoying at first, but in time he starts to grow on them. 

[(poco) Sforzando]

Listening to Agon right now.  I remember not thinking very highly of it the first time I heard it.  Ever since, on each additional listen it has sounded better and better.

I believe it one of IS's most successful later works.

I was mistaken on one point above, almost a year ago:

"You can see a very little bit of Balanchine's Agon by Google Videoing "agon new york city ballet"; unfortunately the soundtrack doesn't use the IS score. And just about 2 minutes from the original staging (Diana Adams and Arthur Mitchell; the mixed-race pas de deux was quite daring for 1957) are easily available in the Kultur DVD documentary of Balanchine's career."

There is another Nonesuch VHS tape called Balanchine Celebration Vol. 2 that presents a good 50% of the ballet, i.e., all three central sections including the two pas de trois and the pas de deux. It is not available on DVD, but there are several used copies on Amazon at rather high prices. (Not to mention one "collectible" copy at $1,147.02. You've got to be joking.) But if your local library has a copy, it is really essential viewing for any Agonist.

[karlhenning]

(Not to mention one "collectible" copy at $1,147.02. You've got to be joking.)

One can only hope that a humorist is at work there.

[Benji]

One can only hope that a humorist is at work there.

He's just being antagonistic