Havergal Brian.

[Renfield]

Christmas has indeed come early for HB enthusiasts.

And also some of us watching from the sidelines.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

A choice snippet from Robert Matthew-Walker's HAVERGAL BRIAN: Reminiscences and Observations (1995). It's 1973:

Leonard Bernstein returned for a Stravinsky concert and stayed at the Savoy. This time, I visited him at his suite, taking with me the score of the 'Gothic'. Bernstein has certainly heard of Brian and of the work, through - I think - my colleague Paul Myers [from the CBS record label], who was of course aware of my keenness for Brian's music. Bernstein spent about two hours studying the music in detail, humming a little and saying, "God, that's ----ing difficult!" at certain passages, but was thrilled at the closing pages of the Scherzo. When he had finished, he looked up and said, "Bob, I'd love to do the 'Gothic' but you know that my life is planned in detail for the next five years or so. If you can persuade Edinburgh or Salzburg or Vienna to want it, then I'll do it."

Alas.

[cilgwyn]

I've often wondered about Bernsteins 'interest' in the Gothic. Was it just a rumour? Where was the proof? Well,here it is! I love the bit with the expletive. So much for some of the snap reviews from some of the music critics. The first time I heard the choral movements I remember being very intrigued,but wondering if they were just some amorphous mess. The more I listened,the more compelling it became. It's such a vast,mind bogglingly complex piece. You really have to spend a bit of time getting to know it. Once you do it's actually chock full of lovely tunes! But that's me. Here's a famous conductor swearing over the complexity of it! The fact that it made him swear like that & he was prepared to spend two hours over it also means he presumably wasn't JUST being polite!!!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Just to add:


Coincidentally, that tireless champion of the unusual in music, Edward Johnson, had sent Bernstein a score of the 'Gothic'; in a note of thanks, the conductor wrote of the music as "overwhelming".

Some background information about the author:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Matthew-Walker

[John Whitmore]

Please forgive me if this has already been posted. I've got a serious case of Gothicitis - I can't stop playing the 1st and 3rd movements and I just came across this on the web. By the way, is it just me that listens to the very opening of the Gothic and half expects the theme from Rawhide to break out?

http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/18/havergal-brian-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/

PS I've spent three weeks overseas with a daily does of HB on the MP3 player. I hadn't heard symphony 21 for the best part of 30 years. I love 10 but really didn't care for 21. I was wrong. It's really good isn't it?  Super performance as well - one of Pinkett's finest moments. Shame about the rocky start to the last movement but such is life. Needed a retake.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Hi, John! Yes, the link has been here. Did you read his follow-up piece?


http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/23/havergal-brian-the-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms-a-few-more-thoughts/


So you're getting the hang of late Brian, do you? And no 21 isn't even one of the strongest. I suggest you try 27 and 31, too, just to see what this late style can accomplish... Oh, and the Concerto for Orchestra is also very approachable...

[John Whitmore]

Good follow up piece. I like this man's views. The Gothic isn't a towering masterpiece but it's not a joke work to be ridiculed either. That's my stance. I like lots of it but the orchestral writing sometimes leaves a lot to desired - he obviously didn't really fully understand what the instruments are capable of, hence so many awkward passages that just don't lie under the fingers (A bit like Rach's string writing). Pity Norman Del Mar's definitive book on orchestration wasn't around at the time - a fabulous read. Putting all the technical rubbish to one side I enjoy the Gothic and also begin to warm to some of his other music. I still don't hear a wayward genius at work but I hear somebody capable of interesting ideas that don't always hang together. That will do me. I certainly prefer HB to that master of vertical blocks with no horizontal development whatsoever who is disliked by most of the pro musicians I have any contact with. I refer to the monumental bore that is Bruckner (yuk!!!). I will now put on a tin helmet and await the Brucknerian flak.

[vandermolen]

Delighted with the news of the Gothic recording (thanks Colin and Johan) - I trust that the recording does not include the sound of my brother toppling off his shooting stick just before the concert started! Definitely on my Christmas list - and to think that I was there too (as with the Foulds 'World Requiem) is just wonderful.

[cilgwyn]

How many minutes/seconds in is the shooting stick incident? It could become as iconic as the fainting choir boy in the Schmidt performance? I shall listen out for it!!!!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

John giveth and John taketh away... I love Bruckner, but perhaps he is boring to play!


Your level-headed view of Brian is okay with me. Although I do think he knew exactly what he was doing and was 'stretching' his orchestra, just as several innovators did before him. I think that if his idiom was better known, and there was a performance tradition, many (not all) of the 'awkwardnesses' would disappear.

[cilgwyn]

Incidentally,I was listening to Bruckner's Fifth,the other day. Music from Heaven. Sorry about that John.
The Gothic has it's purple moments,mainly in the first two movements & the orchestral interludes in the 'Judex'. But that's what I love about it! It's not just heaven storming,it's barn storming! Maybe a composer like Mahler would have refined the orchestration a little more,but then it wouldn't have been Brian anyway.
Can't wait for the Hyperion release!

[Sergeant Rock]

Pity Norman Del Mar's definitive book on orchestration wasn't around at the time....

Thank god it wasn't. I wouldn't want my Brian any other way.

Sarge

[cilgwyn]

Or Walter Piston!

[cilgwyn]

Not that there's anything wrong with Walter Piston!!!

Except maybe,in this thread.

[John Whitmore]

John giveth and John taketh away... I love Bruckner, but perhaps he is boring to play!


Your level-headed view of Brian is okay with me. Although I do think he knew exactly what he was doing and was 'stretching' his orchestra, just as several innovators did before him. I think that if his idiom was better known, and there was a performance tradition, many (not all) of the 'awkwardnesses' would disappear.

I wish I could agree Johan - Stravinsky stretches orchestras but his technical writing is superb and he knew the orchestra intimately as did Debussy and Ravel. Britten, although I'm no fan, also knew exactly what to write. Rach's string writing has some dreadful awkward moments - he wrote for strings as if a violin was a piano and it doesn't work. The 1st movement of the Symphonic Dances has a couple of classic examples where the E and A strings have to be crossed at speed - easy on a piano but a nightmare on the fiddle. I'm a huge Tippett fan but in many ways he's also a talented amateur who sort of learned as he went along. Brian's awkwardness and roughness is part of his charm but I honestly think that this is due to his self taught compositional method and he didn't strectch the orchestra in the traditional sense. He wrote awkwardly for it because he didn't know enough about the instruments and what was possible. Sorry and all that but if you look at the scores and listen to what pro players think the problems are pretty clear. Anyway, who cares? Some of it sounds good anyway and maybe if he had been properly trained in orchestration the music could have been diminished. So there - anyway Arsenal have just started the 2nd half so I'm away......

[John Whitmore]

Bruckner? Give me strength. I'm going to take drink to get over the thought........

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Bruckner? Give me strength. I'm going to take drink to get over the thought........

[cilgwyn]

The Gothic sounds pretty mind boggling to me!!!!

[karlhenning]

And what mind is completely boggle-resistant?

[Dundonnell]

Fascinating to learn of Bernstein's interest in the Gothic! Just imagine what impact his advocacy of the piece would have made on the musical world had he been able to conduct it somewhere or other

I am in ever-increasing awe of my good friend Johan's deep appreciation and understanding not only of the Gothic but of so much more of Brian's oeuvre. It really is quite remarkable how things come around since I still have in my possession a typewritten list of Brian's compositions compiled sometime in the middle 1960s by Malcolm MacDonald(probably while we were both still at school). I felt then and do rather feel now a tad inadequate in making any comments of my own about the music

Nor am I a musician and am therefore totally and completely unqualified to make any constructive observations regarding John's analysis of Brian's orchestration or the handing of particular instruments by other composers.

What does however somewhat console me is that John himself does say "Anyway, who cares?" and, without in any way wishing to diminish the quality or force of those particular arguments, I am resolved to rest my own appreciation of the music on a simple, emotional response to the sound I hear

Oh...and by the way...I love Bruckner too(and admire and respect-I think that is a more appropriate reaction-the music of Walter Piston)