Symphonies in unusual musical modes? (questions + examples)

[Amebix]

How usual are symphonies in Dorian, Mixolydian mode, etc?
And perhaps symphonies in unusual scales too, like the melodic minor scale. (i particularly like that one)
(I don't think of atonal music, though..)

Mainly I thought about asking for examples of such symphonies, but I found out I also had some questions about the subject (since I'm a newbie to classical music and musical theory), so this post got a little long...

I have this impression that most classical music is based around the ordinary minor and major (aeolian and Ionian) scales/modes. At least symphonies are often named in a way (in F Major etc) that can give this impression. I might be wrong...but if my impression is right to some extent - then I wonder - is it simply a historical coincidence that these scales (and modes) are very often used in (recent) western music, and that western ears has become used to them? - or does the Ionian and aeolian modes have some sort of inherent qualities (emotionally or otherwise) that gives the composer more more musical or emotional "area" to "explore" when using these modes, compared to when using others, in such a way that they are more useful to compose with?

(sorry if the question is unclear in some way)

I only know one example, and that's Sibelius Symphony no. 6 in "D Minor", that is said to be mostly in D Dorian. And I find it interesting, because although Dorian mode is used in both Irish folk music and I think in some classical rock, the 6th symphony has a very distinct feeling to it. Doesn't sound much like Irish pub music at all. (not that I dislike Irish pub music)

If there are other examples of symphonies in such unusual modes and scales, I'd love to hear them. Perhaps particularly works in Dorian and melodic minor mode.

[Brian]

If I remember correctly, which is not too likely, the second movement of Brahms' Fourth is in the Phrygian mode. As I'm not too knowledgeable about music theory or this topic, however, I will certainly be reading others' responses with interest.

[DavidW]

I don't understand.  Why only symphonies?  Why would you only care about symphonies?  Your post doesn't really address that, you just seem to equate classical music with symphonies, or they stand out for having keys in their title.  So does like every other work.

Look the heck with symphonies, look at Debussy's Pelleas et Melisande, it veers far away from Dorian mode.

[jowcol]

Not a Symphony- but the Bach Dorian Toccata and Fugue is one of my very favorite Bach Organ works.

Also-- out of the realm of classical, the John Coltrane Quartet's version of My Favorite Things has a very extended E Dorian improve section which is some of my favorite music on the planet! 

[Amebix]

Ok, I see I maybe overemphasised symphonies.
My emphasis on symphonies, and on the Dorian mode and so on, was only due to my current personal preferences. When I think about it, I meant it more like a disgression to the main topic, and not to restrict the topic to symphonies. Other types of works are relevant and welcome as well, and I will just as probably check out those recommendations too. And any unusual scale and mode are relevant to the subject as well.

Thanks for the recommandations so far

[DavidW]

Okay cool beans.  Look into Bartok as well, he also didn't write any symphonies but he certainly had fun with his musical modes.

[jowcol]

If you aren't already familiar with Debussy's Voiles from the first book of piano preludes, it's a must.  Most of it is in whole tone scale, and very hypnotic.

There is a lovely Persian scale that takes a "major" scale and flattens the third.  (Which means no longer major).  It represents the wanderer, forever seeking home and acceptance, but never finding it.

I'm not as deep in Hovannes (sp?) as I should be, but I understand he was really big into using non-western scales.  I need to revisit him.

[Dana]

I haven't really studied it, but Vaughan-Williams' 8th Symphony does some pretty funky tonal flips.

[greg]

Okay cool beans.  Look into Bartok as well, he also didn't write any symphonies but he certainly had fun with his musical modes.

Such as polymodal chromaticism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymodal_chromaticism

If I remember correctly, which is not too likely, the second movement of Brahms' Fourth is in the Phrygian mode. As I'm not too knowledgeable about music theory or this topic, however, I will certainly be reading others' responses with interest.

Yeah, you remembered right- it starts off in E Phrygian, but goes elsewhere right after the beginning.
It's E E F G, E E F G, E E D C E... which establishes E as the root.

How usual are symphonies in Dorian, Mixolydian mode, etc?
And perhaps symphonies in unusual scales too, like the melodic minor scale. (i particularly like that one)
(I don't think of atonal music, though..)

Mainly I thought about asking for examples of such symphonies, but I found out I also had some questions about the subject (since I'm a newbie to classical music and musical theory), so this post got a little long...

I have this impression that most classical music is based around the ordinary minor and major (aeolian and Ionian) scales/modes. At least symphonies are often named in a way (in F Major etc) that can give this impression. I might be wrong...but if my impression is right to some extent - then I wonder - is it simply a historical coincidence that these scales (and modes) are very often used in (recent) western music, and that western ears has become used to them? - or does the Ionian and aeolian modes have some sort of inherent qualities (emotionally or otherwise) that gives the composer more more musical or emotional "area" to "explore" when using these modes, compared to when using others, in such a way that they are more useful to compose with?

(sorry if the question is unclear in some way)

I only know one example, and that's Sibelius Symphony no. 6 in "D Minor", that is said to be mostly in D Dorian. And I find it interesting, because although Dorian mode is used in both Irish folk music and I think in some classical rock, the 6th symphony has a very distinct feeling to it. Doesn't sound much like Irish pub music at all. (not that I dislike Irish pub music)

If there are other examples of symphonies in such unusual modes and scales, I'd love to hear them. Perhaps particularly works in Dorian and melodic minor mode.

Usually, though, if you study most works, you'll find the whole "major"/"minor" thing to be not very strict, at least when compared to, say, rock music. It's not very common to hear something in the same key for an entire movement, unless you're talking about minimalism.

If you're coming from a background of only studying music that is rock (or pop, or whatever) and then go to classical, it's a completely different thing.

I can't think of much classical at all that would benefit from modal analysis (you could, but it's a bit impractical). It's best to just analyze most stuff based off of major/minor, and everything not in that scale as chromatics. There are exceptions, but that's the general rule. The real, distinctive language of classical music comes from the heavy use of chromatics and modulation that sets it apart from popular music.

[jochanaan]

...I'm not as deep in Hovannes (sp?) as I should be, but I understand he was really big into using non-western scales.  I need to revisit him.

Indeed, Alan Hovhaness was very much into non-Western modes.  His ancestry was Armenian, but he also studied in Japan, Korea, India and (I believe) Thailand or Malaysia, and much of his music features modes from these and other countries.

The third movement of Beethoven's String Quartet #15 is in the Lydian mode.

Many Baroque compositions that sound in minor actually have a Dorian key signature.

A word about minor scales: If something is "in minor," it's understood that any of the three forms, natural, melodic and harmonic, will probably be used.

[david johnson]

A word about minor scales: If something is "in minor," it's understood that any of the three forms, natural, melodic and harmonic, will probably be used.

yes...not everyone knows this.  thanx, karl.

[listener]

Italy, and closeness to the Vatican, gives composers some familiarity with modal music.
Respighi has a String Quartet in the Dorian mode, and a Piano Concerto in modo misolidio (Concerto in the Mixolydian mode) (1925)

[Superhorn]

  Carl Nielsen often uses the Mixolydian mode, with its flattened 7th,in his music.

[rappy]

The main theme of Bruckner's 6th is in the Phrygian mode and the slow movement is based on a Phrygian bass-scale.

The popularity of the major and (harmonic) minor keys can be explained easily:

Phyrgian mode: dominant = dimished chord
Lydian mode: I-IV = tritone
Dorian mode: no leading tone to the tonic
Mixolydian mode: same

[abidoful]

A famous one is of course the Sibelius 6xth (Dorian)

[greg]

I wonder if Amebix is named after the band "Amebix"...?

[zamyrabyrd]

How about Borodin? I seem to remember some modality in some of his orchestral works. Maybe there is someone here more knowledgable.

ZB