Perfect Pitch training

[m_gigena]

Has anyone tried those learn perfect pitch cds?

Forget those cds and start playing the violin. That's the best practice you can have.

[jochanaan]

Don't recall. Search The Diner in the old forum. The link is somewhere there.

Hmmm...I'm not sure I can take the time to search the old forum, nor am I sure I can still access it.  But it might be interesting for someone who has perfect pitch to take those tests.

I have heard perfect pitch described as a perfect memory for pitches; that's as good a description as any.  When I hear a tone, for example, I know instantly what it is and can make a good guess as to whether it's sharp or flat.  (But period-instrument recordings often throw me, because they're tuned to pitches well off from modern concert pitch.)  I don't have to guess, or go through any kind of elimination process; I know.  (That's not "showing off;" that's just describing the ability these tests and courses are trying to measure and enhance.)  If these online programs can actually help develop this pitch-recognition ability, I'd be very interested; maybe I could actually teach it!

[karlhenning]

jochanaan! Expect imminent e-mail (beyond a msg I sent earlier . . . .)

[stingo]

It is indeed. More showing off, you might say.

Wasn't there a thread on the old forum where someone said you looked like a villain in a James Bond film? Not the main villain, but the seconday one?

And more to point, I've a friend that has perfect pitch and it's kind of amazing and annoying at the same time.

[Mark]

Wasn't there a thread on the old forum where someone said you looked like a villain in a James Bond film? Not the main villain, but the seconday one?

No. There was talk of me looking like either a serial killer or a kiddie fiddler. I am neither.

[bwv 1080]

Now I have been reading Guitar Player and other guitar mags off and on for over 20 years now and that Perfect Pitch weenie has been taking full page ads for his program in just about every issue I have seen.  So

A) Presumably he is getting a large number of people responding to the ad
B) The number of guitar players with perfect pitch (albeit from anecdotal evidence) has not increased above something just above nil

Therefore the program does not work and perfect pitch (unlike relative pitch) cannot be taught.

[orbital]

you don't need perfect pitch to find out what's wrong with this f minor fantasy clip 

[Montpellier]

It depends on things like how tired I am.  I can usually tell the key of a diatonic piece, can sometimes name a pitch in isolation.  As a composer it hasn't worried me as relative pitch seems more important.

[greg]

Now I have been reading Guitar Player and other guitar mags off and on for over 20 years now and that Perfect Pitch weenie has been taking full page ads for his program in just about every issue I have seen.  So

A) Presumably he is getting a large number of people responding to the ad
B) The number of guitar players with perfect pitch (albeit from anecdotal evidence) has not increased above something just above nil

Therefore the program does not work and perfect pitch (unlike relative pitch) cannot be taught.

i see that ad all the time, too!
i tried using a program a few years ago to help me with perfect pitch but i got bored with it and was going nowhere, so i don't use it anymore.

[Shrunk]

Now I have been reading Guitar Player and other guitar mags off and on for over 20 years now and that Perfect Pitch weenie has been taking full page ads for his program in just about every issue I have seen.  So

A) Presumably he is getting a large number of people responding to the ad
B) The number of guitar players with perfect pitch (albeit from anecdotal evidence) has not increased above something just above nil

Therefore the program does not work and perfect pitch (unlike relative pitch) cannot be taught.

I actually bought that set (on cassettes; this was pre-CD's, so that will give you a hint how long ago this was).  The basic premise was that every pitch has a distinct "colour" and that thru practice you could learn to recognize this as easily as you can tell yellow from blue.  To demonstrate, the course started out comparing F# with Eb, supposedly the two pitches with the most extreme contrast.  F# supposedly has a  harsh, nasal quality, while Eb is more mellow.  Another way of making the distinction was F# sounds like the word "where",and Eb like "wah".

I thought I could hear these distinctions, but the course involved more practice time than I thought was justified, given the much more basic things I needed (and still need) to work on.  Still, I remain open to the possibility that it might work.

[jochanaan]

I actually bought that set (on cassettes; this was pre-CD's, so that will give you a hint how long ago this was).  The basic premise was that every pitch has a distinct "colour" and that thru practice you could learn to recognize this as easily as you can tell yellow from blue.  To demonstrate, the course started out comparing F# with Eb, supposedly the two pitches with the most extreme contrast.  F# supposedly has a  harsh, nasal quality, while Eb is more mellow.  Another way of making the distinction was F# sounds like the word "where",and Eb like "wah".

I thought I could hear these distinctions, but the course involved more practice time than I thought was justified, given the much more basic things I needed (and still need) to work on.  Still, I remain open to the possibility that it might work.

*shakes head*  I can't speak for everyone with perfect pitch, but that's not how I do it.  I recognize the pitch itself, not its color.  And what happens when you change instruments?  That's certainly a color change.

I think you guys are getting scammed.

[Bunny]

*shakes head*  I can't speak for everyone with perfect pitch, but that's not how I do it.  I recognize the pitch itself, not its color.  And what happens when you change instruments?  That's certainly a color change.

I think you guys are getting scammed.

Unless you are a synesthete, you aren't going to see notes in color.  There are people who taste numbers or see them in different colorsas well.  Perception of letters can also be affected.  This is caused when different centers in the brain are for some reason of chemistry or wiring reactive to stimuli which generally don't affect that part of the brain in most people.  The artist David Hockney was a more famous synesthete, and there was recently a tv special about a man who after a serious injury as a child became a synesthete.  He became famous because he was able to memorize the number Pi to more places than anyone has ever done before.  He was  able to do this because each digit had a different color and he could remember those.

All the training in the world won't make someone who isn't a synesthete into one, although I'll bet that LSD might help. 

[Black Knight]

I don't think they're talking about actual colors. It's a metaphor.

[jochanaan]

I don't think they're talking about actual colors. It's a metaphor.

Of course.  What these tapes apparently describe is what most musicians call "instrumental color," the unique combination of harmonics and other overtones that give each instrument its recognizable tone.  But that changes from instrument to instrument, and even from player to player; one flutist is not going to sound exactly like another, nor one violinist or trumpeter.

What I'm saying is that I can recognize pitches apart from all these color factors, and so can the others I've known who have perfect pitch.  We can recognize an F# even when it's played on a mellow horn, or an Eb on a reedy oboe.  Nor have these colors ever had anything to do with my ability to recognize pitches.  The nature of our gift is that we can recognize any pitch in any circumstance, whether it's produced by a piano, a clarinet, a vacuum cleaner or a car.

Please don't get me wrong.  I would like nothing better than to find that perfect pitch could be taught!  If nothing else, that would help choirs to sing perfectly in tune without accompaniment and avoid those pitch changes that irritate us. But this "color" method is not the way to do it.  At most, it may teach you to recognize certain pitches under controlled circumstances.  That can be useful--but it's not perfect pitch as I experience it.

[Shrunk]

What I'm saying is that I can recognize pitches apart from all these color factors, and so can the others I've known who have perfect pitch.  We can recognize an F# even when it's played on a mellow horn, or an Eb on a reedy oboe.  Nor have these colors ever had anything to do with my ability to recognize pitches.  The nature of our gift is that we can recognize any pitch in any circumstance, whether it's produced by a piano, a clarinet, a vacuum cleaner or a car.

I'm curious.  Do you feel you have this ability innately, or is it something you developed.  In other words, where you able to distinguish absolute pitch the moment you picked up an instrument, or is that ability something that developed as you became more adept and experienced as a musician?

[jochanaan]

I'm curious.  Do you feel you have this ability innately, or is it something you developed.  In other words, where you able to distinguish absolute pitch the moment you picked up an instrument, or is that ability something that developed as you became more adept and experienced as a musician?

Oh, I've had it ever since I can remember, from when I first learned what to call each note--and I don't remember learning to read music either, although I can just barely remember a time when I couldn't actually distinguish the notes.

Some have theorized that it's learned very young, maybe during the first year after birth.  That's very possible in my case, for I was surrounded by music from the moment of my conception; my father was a very fine violinist, my mother played piano and sang well, and my elder sisters played violin and piano, respectively.  We also had an extensive record collection, both LPs and 78s.  (I have most of it now.)

So no, I can't claim any credit for learning the ability, although I have developed and sharpened it over the years.  I can't quite tell if, say, an A is exactly 440 Herz, although I can come very close; but I can recognize it as an A at once with no mental gymnastics, no hesitation.  And even in my young days I could tell if a record player (does anybody else still have one?) played records a little too fast; it sounded sharp.

A friend once commented as I was tuning a mandolin by ear, "So you just adjust until you feel it's the right pitch?"  I replied, "Feeling has nothing to do with it.  I know."

[Shrunk]

Interesting, Jochanaan.  That's pretty consistent with others I have spoken to who have absolute pitch.  i.e. it seems as natural to them as being able to distinguish green from yellow, or the taste of an onion from that of a cherry.  The etiology of absolute pitch is a classic "nature vs. nurture" debate, and your example could give ample evidence for either side. 

This article, though ten years old, summarizes a lot of the thinking on where absolute pitch comes from:

http://tinyurl.com/3dsy3q

[greg]

i don't think i posted this before:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000AF8AE-D1DD-118F-91DD83414B7F0000

there seems to be a relation between tonal languages and ability with perfect pitch

[jochanaan]

...there seems to be a relation between tonal languages and ability with perfect pitch

That makes a lot of sense.  I have also observed that musicians tend to learn foreign languages more easily than non-musicians.

[greg]

That makes a lot of sense.  I have also observed that musicians tend to learn foreign languages more easily than non-musicians.

and that's good news for ME!