Missing Members

[Brian]

The goal wasn't to make the emperor go away or to just wait until he went away. The goal was to get the emperor to put some clothes on. I was trying to get what was useless to become useful.

If you think the appropriate response is to leave him naked until he's left your neighbourhood, that's on you.

The emperor would be if I started the thread.

[Madiel]

The emperor would be if I started the thread.

The local mayor then. But H C Andersen aimed a little higher and the reference needed to be comprehensible.

[AnotherSpin]

The comparison with The Emperor's New Clothes seems rather misplaced. Andersen's tale is about deliberate deceit, social pressure, and the fear of speaking plainly—a court fooled into silence until a child dares to state the obvious.

The forum case is quite different: a participant started a new thread, perhaps a touch provocative, but hardly deceptive. It was simply a thread aired in a space made for such things.

One is a fable about illusion and collective denial; the other, a perfectly ordinary bit of discussion. To conflate the two is, I daresay, a stretch.

[Madiel]

The comparison with The Emperor's New Clothes seems rather misplaced. Andersen's tale is about deliberate deceit, social pressure, and the fear of speaking plainly—a court fooled into silence until a child dares to state the obvious.

The forum case is quite different: a participant started a new thread, perhaps a touch provocative, but hardly deceptive. It was simply a thread aired in a space made for such things.

One is a fable about illusion and collective denial; the other, a perfectly ordinary bit of discussion. To conflate the two is, I daresay, a stretch.

It isn't the emperor that engages in deception. It's the crowd that engages in silence. And a father tells off his child for speaking.

It's not collective denial. People in the story are well aware no clothes are visible.

And now people here are regularly admitting they knew the thread was useless or didn't make sense.

And yes, there IS social pressure here. You're all expressing your social pressure. I mean, how many times now has someone suggested that Andrei and I shouldn't have said anything about the project not meeting its claimed goal? A moderator has done so, and now I've quite literally been told what the "appropriate response" was. If that isn't an attempt to express a social norm, I don't know what is.

The proposal here was in one sense slightly deceptive in my view, but that's neither here nor there. The core of H C Andersen's story is not that the idea was deceptive, but that the idea was crap and that nobody dared say so. Whether the proponent of an idea knows it's crap or is just deluded really doesn't make a lot of difference.

[Florestan]

The "ignore useless threads" school of thought is not entirely wrong. Yes, I and @Madiel could have ignored coffee's confections --- and actually this is exactly what I did with his 136th tier thread, where for days I refrained from posting in; I just couldn't help it when without any logic whatsoever he jumped to the 9th tier. The big problem, though, is that it cuts both ways: coffee too could have ignored our criticism and carry on with his business. He didn't; more than that, he blew the whole thing out of all proportions and abruptly left. Yet nobody seems to object to his not ignoring us, whereas we (Madiel in a far larger proportion, actually) are scolded for not ignoring him. That's not quite fair. And there's more to it: almost nobody seems to have noticed that he framed the whole kerfuffle as a class war, claiming that I was trying to prevent him from joining my class and enjoying my music (his exact words), which is sheer nonsense. So we have a situation in which people claim agreeing with Madiel and me in principle yet rebuke us for telling publicly what they apparently thought as well, whereas coffee gets a free pass with his nonsense. That's not quite fair either.

Anyway, people who are really interested in playing his game can do so at TC (where his username is science): there are far more tiers than here. Be warned, though, that according to himself you'll have to sift through more than 7,000 pieces of music. Better still, you can take a look at the current state of the tiers (presented here: https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,34113.msg1612698.html#msg1612698) and notice that it has a strong (and predictable) Austro-Germanic, (Late) Romantic bias; if interested in promoting music post-1950, you'll have to slowly work your way up from deep, deep down.

As for @hopefullytrusting, his departure is indeed regrettable, but given he was in no way involved in the rage over a spilled coffee, I fail to see how it can be attributable to Madiel or to me.

[AnotherSpin]

It isn't the emperor that engages in deception. It's the crowd that engages in silence. And a father tells off his child for speaking.

It's not collective denial. People in the story are well aware no clothes are visible.

And now people here are regularly admitting they knew the thread was useless or didn't make sense.

And yes, there IS social pressure here. You're all expressing your social pressure. I mean, how many times now has someone suggested that Andrei and I shouldn't have said anything about the project not meeting its claimed goal? A moderator has done so, and now I've quite literally been told what the "appropriate response" was. If that isn't an attempt to express a social norm, I don't know what is.

The proposal here was in one sense slightly deceptive in my view, but that's neither here nor there. The core of H C Andersen's story is not that the idea was deceptive, but that the idea was crap and that nobody dared say so. Whether the proponent of an idea knows it's crap or is just deluded really doesn't make a lot of difference.

In Andersen's fairy tale, there were swindlers — something you don't find here. The fooled king, who is also missing. And the crowd of subjects, too afraid to speak up — well, I don't see that either.

[ritter]

Yes, the thread might have been useless and might not have made sense to most (but certainly not all) of us, but just as useless was the crusade started against the OP of that thread, and even more useless is the current discussion. So let's cut it cut and return to our music discussions. Right now.

Thanks!

[Madiel]

Yes, the thread might have been useless and might not have made sense to most (but certainly not all) of us, but just as useless was the crusade started against the OP of that thread, and even more useless is the current discussion. So let's cut it cut and return to our music discussions. Right now.

Thanks!

The goal was not to get the emperor to leave. The goal was to get the emperor to put some clothes on.

There was no crusade against it, and frankly your refusal to acknowledge that is typical.

End transmission.

[ritter]

End transmission.

Thank God for that!!!!

[AnotherSpin]

And I'd like to add a little something. To be honest, I really don't understand this whole business with tiers. I haven't the faintest idea what it's about, and I've never been part of anything like that. Ranking music by tiers or positions, creating a top five or top ten – it just strikes me as utter nonsense, something that might only capture the imagination of a naïve young lad who's yet to realise the lack of a proper outfit, or rather, the lack of meaning.

That said, I'm not at all bothered if someone comes here with such a topic. No trouble at all. Getting all worked up about defending the sandbox and insisting on different rules here, well, that seems like a bit of a silly folly. Only yesterday or the day before, @Mandryka explained in another thread why such behaviour might occur.

[Madiel]

Thank God for that!!!!

Just think, was that really necessary to say?

The king of telling other people not to post and yet you are extremely good at saying things that didn't need to be said.

[ultralinear]

To be honest, I really don't understand this whole business with tiers. I haven't the faintest idea what it's about, and I've never been part of anything like that. Ranking music by tiers or positions, creating a top five or top ten – it just strikes me as utter nonsense, something that might only capture the imagination of a naïve young lad who's yet to realise the lack of a proper outfit, or rather, the lack of meaning.

The reason why coffee makes these lists, and why he attaches such importance to them, was established on a previous occasion:  he has totally bought the narrative that enjoyment of classical music is an elite activity.  The lists are his means of entry to that elite.  Hence the remark about class.  He once said explicitly that the function of the list was to identify the works with which he needed to be familiar in order to appear erudite on an Internet music forum.  Until he could do that, his enjoyment of music would remain basically fraudulent.  The fact that the list has so many works on it, in so many tiers, is a sign of how futile this quest is, but still he persists, and is only encouraged in his mistaken premise when others engage with it (in one way or another.)

[AnotherSpin]

The reason why coffee makes these lists, and why he attaches such importance to them, was established on a previous occasion:  he has totally bought the narrative that enjoyment of classical music is an elite activity.  The lists are his means of entry to that elite.  Hence the remark about class.  He once said explicitly that the function of the list was to identify the works with which he needed to be familiar in order to appear erudite on an Internet music forum.  Until he could do that, his enjoyment of music would remain basically fraudulent.  The fact that the list has so many works on it, in so many tiers, is a sign of how futile this quest is, but still he persists, and is only encouraged in his mistaken premise when others engage with it (in one way or another.)

Didn't quite make things much clearer, I'm afraid, but cheers for trying to shed some light.

As we say in Ukraine, чим би дитя не тішилось, аби не плакало (whatever keeps the child amused, so long as it's not crying). The world's got enough tears as it is — drawing up lists or chasing after some imagined elite hardly seems worth the effort of unmasking, let alone booting the poor fellow off the forum.

[Florestan]

The reason why coffee makes these lists, and why he attaches such importance to them, was established on a previous occasion:  he has totally bought the narrative that enjoyment of classical music is an elite activity.  The lists are his means of entry to that elite.  Hence the remark about class.  He once said explicitly that the function of the list was to identify the works with which he needed to be familiar in order to appear erudite on an Internet music forum.  Until he could do that, his enjoyment of music would remain basically fraudulent.  The fact that the list has so many works on it, in so many tiers, is a sign of how futile this quest is, but still he persists, and is only encouraged in his mistaken premise when others engage with it (in one way or another.)

Hear, hear!

[Szykneij]

Yes, the thread might have been useless and might not have made sense to most (but certainly not all) of us, but just as useless was the crusade started against the OP of that thread, and even more useless is the current discussion. So let's cut it cut and return to our music discussions. Right now.

Thanks!

I didn't really understand the original thread so didn't bother with it, but I do find the current discussion interesting in that there are compelling arguments on either side. And even though there is a bit of testiness, people are making valid points. The question of why members might leave the forum is an appropriate one for this thread. I'm leaning one way, but still undecided.

[Kalevala]

I'm still active...though not as much lately.  Thank you for asking and caring. 😘

K

[Karl Henning]

Just a note that I've been in touch with Sock Monkey Greg via e-mail.

[Der lächelnde Schatten]

Just a note that I've been in touch with Sock Monkey Greg via e-mail.

Very nice, Karl. Do let him know he is sorely missed on GMG.

[Karl Henning]

Very nice, Karl. Do let him know he is sorely missed on GMG.

Will do.