Schoenberg's Sheen

[Vox Maris]

Yesterday, I saw Gurreleider and what an outstanding experience that was!  It was beautifully conducted by 88 year old Zubin Mehta who has a very long history with this work.  I knew the music well but not the story but was sitting next to a couple who knew the story very well but not the music so we talked when approproiate.  I knew it was a Wagnerian love story but half way through, my jaw dropped when I discovered Tove was in fact dead.  The music made so much more sense then and I found the story so moving with many goosebump moments.  I wish Schoenberg had composed more music like this but maybe part of what makes this so special is that it is one of a kind.  I do want to hear more of his operas after seeing his sentimental and dramatic storytelling skills!  Really wonderful concert experience, I'm so glad I attended despite the very high prices.

I bet that was an incredible experience, indeed. The reason I believe Schoenberg didn't compose another work like Gurre-Lieder stems from the composer's own personal quest to not repeat himself. Every piece he composed, his goal was to work completely anew. In retrospect, I believe this attitude served him incredibly well, because his oeuvre is so diverse.

[relm1]

I bet that was an incredible experience, indeed. The reason I believe Schoenberg didn't compose another work like Gurre-Lieder stems from the composer's own personal quest to not repeat himself. Every piece he composed, his goal was to work completely anew. In retrospect, I believe this attitude served him incredibly well, because his oeuvre is so diverse.

The program notes said he composed the work in 1900 but set it aside due to its impracticalities and didn't complete the orchestration till 1911 by which time his style had completely changed, and he felt it no longer represented him or his art but wanted it completed due to a partial performance.  Interestingly, his children are apparently still alive and live not far from me.  I guess they're in their 80's.

It also mentions at the premiere that there was a huge ovation since it's a very good work with a great ending but he didn't acknowledge the audience.  It sounded like he didn't do this to insult the audience, but I forgot why he did that.  Will have to re-read the notes.

[brewski]

Yesterday, I saw Gurreleider and what an outstanding experience that was!  It was beautifully conducted by 88 year old Zubin Mehta who has a very long history with this work.  I knew the music well but not the story but was sitting next to a couple who knew the story very well but not the music so we talked when approproiate.  I knew it was a Wagnerian love story but half way through, my jaw dropped when I discovered Tove was in fact dead.  The music made so much more sense then and I found the story so moving with many goosebump moments.  I wish Schoenberg had composed more music like this but maybe part of what makes this so special is that it is one of a kind.  I do want to hear more of his operas after seeing his sentimental and dramatic storytelling skills!  Really wonderful concert experience, I'm so glad I attended despite the very high prices.

Very envious! I saw that this was happening (in Disney Hall, no less) and gave a passing thought to flying out to hear it — assuming tickets were even available. I did see the piece live from Hamburg on Sep. 13, Schoenberg's birthday, which was also opening night of the Elbphilharmonie Orchester. You can watch it here if you're interested, but frankly, If I had gone to the Mehta concert, I wouldn't want to hear it for awhile!

In any case, glad it was a fantastic experience, and that you had conversation with some of the audience, too.

-Bruce

[Vox Maris]

The program notes said he composed the work in 1900 but set it aside due to its impracticalities and didn't complete the orchestration till 1911 by which time his style had completely changed, and he felt it no longer represented him or his art but wanted it completed due to a partial performance.  Interestingly, his children are apparently still alive and live not far from me.  I guess they're in their 80's.

It also mentions at the premiere that there was a huge ovation since it's a very good work with a great ending but he didn't acknowledge the audience.  It sounded like he didn't do this to insult the audience, but I forgot why he did that.  Will have to re-read the notes.

Yes, but we must remember that he did this with several works --- two of which he didn't complete like Moses und Aron and Die Jakobsleiter for example. I believe I remember reading the reason he turned his back on the audience was their applause was for a work that no longer represented his current musical ideas and perhaps felt that the only way he could get applause is if he gives his audience what they wanted instead of what fulfilled him creatively. A lot of this could probably be attributed to the rather hostile reaction his work received after that initial early period. I'm particularly thinking of the Skandalkonzert of 1913 for example, which if you haven't read about, I highly suggest it --- quite fascinating.

[relm1]

Yes, but we must remember that he did this with several works --- two of which he didn't complete for like Moses und Aron and Die Jakobsleiter for example. I believe I remember reading the reason he turned his back on the audience was their applause was for a work that no longer represented his current musical ideas and perhaps felt that the only way he could get applause is if he gives his audience what they wanted instead of what fulfilled him creatively. A lot of this could probably be attributed to the rather hostile reaction his work received after that initial early period. I'm particularly thinking of the Skandalkonzert of 1913 for example, which if you haven't read about, I highly suggest it --- quite fascinating.

Thanks, will check Skandalhonzert out!

[Brian]

Fires in Los Angeles have destroyed the Schoenberg archive of his original manuscripts:
https://backstageclassical.com/los-angeles-feuer-fressen-schoenberg-bestand/

[Lisztianwagner]

Fires in Los Angeles have destroyed the Schoenberg archive of his original manuscripts:
https://backstageclassical.com/los-angeles-feuer-fressen-schoenberg-bestand/

Sad news indeed, it's a terrible loss; if Schönberg's manuscripts were digitized, they would be certainly preserved more easily, but it isn't the same as having the original papers.

[Cato]

Sad news indeed, it's a terrible loss; if Schönberg's manuscripts were digitized, they would be certainly preserved more easily, but it isn't the same as having the original papers.

I just saw the FaceBook page for Schoenberg announce the bad news.

Written by Schoenberg's son Lawrence:

The fire that ravaged the Pacific Palisades community in early January left a trail of devastation, and unfortunately, Belmont Music Publishers was among its most significant casualties. The entire inventory of sales and rental materials—comprising some manuscripts, original scores, and printed works—has been lost in the flames. For a company that focused exclusively on the works of Schoenberg, this loss represents not just a physical destruction of property but a profound cultural blow.

Belmont Music's catalog encompassed Schoenberg's complete range of compositions, from his early Romantic works to his groundbreaking twelve-tone pieces. These works, including compositions like Verklärte Nacht and Pierrot Lunaire, are foundational to the 20th-century classical repertoire. Belmont's role in preserving and distributing these masterpieces was invaluable for musicians and scholars alike, who turned to the publisher for access to authentic, carefully edited editions of Schoenberg's challenging but transformative music.

See this for the entire Press Release:

https://slippedisc.com/2025/01/disaster-arnold-schoenberg-archive-is-destroyed-in-la-fires/

[Karl Henning]

Fires in Los Angeles have destroyed the Schoenberg archive of his original manuscripts:
https://backstageclassical.com/los-angeles-feuer-fressen-schoenberg-bestand/

Ouch!

[Duke Bluebeard]

An absolute shame this happened. As @Lisztianwagner pointed out, I do hope these manuscripts were digitized for the sake of prosperity.

[Cato]

An absolute shame this happened. As @Lisztianwagner pointed out, I do hope these manuscripts were digitized for the sake of prosperity.

Why were they not in fireproof safes?!  That was the first thing which struck me!

[Duke Bluebeard]

Why were they not in fireproof safes?!  That was the first thing which struck me!

A good point and rather curious, indeed.

[relm1]

Why were they not in fireproof safes?!  That was the first thing which struck me!

This wasn't a normal fire, it was a fire hurricane.  Nothing survived in some of the impacted communities.  Fire stations are even gone, you just see mangled debris remaining.

[Duke Bluebeard]

This wasn't a normal fire, it was a fire hurricane.  Nothing survived in some of the impacted communities.  Fire stations are even gone, you just see mangled degree remaining.

Those Santa Ana winds no doubt are a big reason why this fire spread as quickly as it did. My heart goes out to all those people who lost their homes and businesses. Hopefully, it will get contained. I believe someone has already been arrested in conjunction with one of the fires. You can correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

[Cato]

Those Santa Ana winds no doubt are a big reason why this fire spread as quickly as it did. My heart goes out to all those people who lost their homes and businesses. Hopefully, it will get contained. I believe someone has already been arrested in conjunction with one of the fires. You can correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

More than just one (lunatic? terrorist? lunatic terrorist?) arsonist has been arrested: I saw a video of citizens holding one arsonist down until the police arrived. 

Anyway, I discovered that top fireproof safes (Class 350) can last 4 hours at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit.  What that means is that the safe's interior will be 350 degrees or lower, which might still damage paper documents with yellowing.

However, house or building fires never last 4 hours at a constant 2,000 degrees, but perhaps this time is an exception.

It is possible that the Schoenberg manuscripts were in a fireproof safe of some sort, but were still "baked" by the high heat outside.

And even a fireproof safe will begin to melt with enough heat and time.

[Karl Henning]

More than just one (lunatic? terrorist? lunatic terrorist?) arsonist has been arrested: I saw a video of citizens holding one arsonist down until the police arrived. 

Anyway, I discovered that top fireproof safes (Class 350) can last 4 hours at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit.  What that means is that the safe's interior will be 350 degrees or lower, which might still damage paper documents with yellowing.

However, house or building fires never last 4 hours at a constant 2,000 degrees, but perhaps this time is an exception.

It is possible that the Schoenberg manuscripts were in a fireproof safe of some sort, but were still "baked" by the high heat outside.

And even a fireproof safe will begin to melt with enough heat and time.

Thanks. I was wondering.

[Duke Bluebeard]

More than just one (lunatic? terrorist? lunatic terrorist?) arsonist has been arrested: I saw a video of citizens holding one arsonist down until the police arrived. 

Anyway, I discovered that top fireproof safes (Class 350) can last 4 hours at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit.  What that means is that the safe's interior will be 350 degrees or lower, which might still damage paper documents with yellowing.

However, house or building fires never last 4 hours at a constant 2,000 degrees, but perhaps this time is an exception.

It is possible that the Schoenberg manuscripts were in a fireproof safe of some sort, but were still "baked" by the high heat outside.

And even a fireproof safe will begin to melt with enough heat and time.

Thanks for the information. All in all, this has been a tragedy for all-involved. My only hope is the fires get contained, so there can be a rebuilding process. But I know this won't happen for quite some time down the road. More importantly, right now, people being safe is more important than anything else, which includes those Schoenberg manuscripts.

[Roasted Swan]

As others have mentioned - the hope must be that most/much of the material had been digitised but there is another significant consideration.  As all of the hire materials have been lost too then there is a real issue of future performers accessing the physical music to perform from.  In the early 1960's Chappells warehouse in London suffered a catastrophic fire which destroyed most of their hire material of Bax's major works.  This in no small part caused Bax's music to disappear from the concert hall for decades.  The hope must be that Belmont were not the only company from which Schoenberg's music could be hired.  But as the major source/reference library there is bound to be an enduring impact with regards to availability.  Of course this is just another part of the jigsaw puzzle of loss and destruction that has made this natural disaster so shocking for everyone around the world.

[Cato]

As others have mentioned - the hope must be that most/much of the material had been digitised but there is another significant consideration.  As all of the hire materials have been lost too then there is a real issue of future performers accessing the physical music to perform from.  In the early 1960's Chappells warehouse in London suffered a catastrophic fire which destroyed most of their hire material of Bax's major works.  This in no small part caused Bax's music to disappear from the concert hall for decades.  The hope must be that Belmont were not the only company from which Schoenberg's music could be hired.  But as the major source/reference library there is bound to be an enduring impact with regards to availability.  Of course this is just another part of the jigsaw puzzle of loss and destruction that has made this natural disaster so shocking for everyone around the world.

Universal Edition has published a good number of Schoenberg's works throughout the decades, and I know that Belmont Music offered their scores.

I know nothing about hire materials from Universal Edition, but perhaps they offer those as well.

[relm1]

Those Santa Ana winds no doubt are a big reason why this fire spread as quickly as it did. My heart goes out to all those people who lost their homes and businesses. Hopefully, it will get contained. I believe someone has already been arrested in conjunction with one of the fires. You can correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

It was much worse than Santa Anna winds.  It was hurricane force winds reaching 100 mph in the mountains.  We get Santa Anna winds regularly because of the geography (surrounded by mountains with a central valley funnels the winds) but here was a major pressure change + Santa Anna winds + no rain in 8 months + very high density population where the fire started.  That made it very, very difficult to evacuate quickly and the fire grew stunningly fast because of the hurricane winds.  When one thing caught on fire, embers blew miles away starting another fire.  I saw the outbreak of the fire maybe 30 minutes after it started and it was already 200 square acres.  By the end of the day, it was 10,000 square acres!  People had 10 minutes to evacuate and often got stuck by the fast moving fires spread by the winds.  It was absolutely devastating and still very present. I live a few miles away and it felt like it was snowing ash smelling like charcoal with horrible air quality.

I don't think they arrested someone in connection with starting the fire.  I seriously doubt it because the fire is very much still active so there isn't an investigation yet.  There are loads of looters being arrested who are taking advantage of all the evacuated/destroyed properties.  My thinking since it was such fierce winds is it probably was started by a downed power line.