Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[(poco) Sforzando]

Do we count Thomas de Quincey as part of that group? He wrote prose poems.

You're right, forgot about him.

[SonicMan46]

Now that the scientific method has yielded the most perfectly accurate ranking known to man, it's time to publish the results:


The Top Ten – in order, as determined by Science!
Minsoo Sohn
Andrea Lucchesini
Annie Fischer
Daniel-Ben Pienaar
Irina Mejoueva (Bijin)
Artur Schnabel
Russell Sherman
Wilhelm Kempff (DG, mono)
Yu Kosuge
Eric Heidsieck

[Rudolf Serkin & Sviatoslav Richter; OK, they didn't complete a cycle, but this is where they belong]
........................................

Well, two of my sonata sets have been relegated to Todd's Second Tier (Gulda on Amadeo and Kempff in stereo) - Andrea Lucchesini who I've heard and enjoy streaming is not a consideration for me because of the applause - NOW, I've been listening to Minsoo Sohn on Spotify and am enjoying but will this set ever be a 'physical package'?  I've also heard Pienaar on Spotify but has been a while, maybe another sampling.  But curious of what others think of Sohn and also how one might re-arrange that Top Tier?        Dave

[Todd]

I've been listening to Minsoo Sohn on Spotify and am enjoying but will this set ever be a 'physical package'?

Don't hold your breath. 

...and also how one might re-arrange that Top Tier?

The order was scientifically determined.  It can no more be rearranged than the Boltzmann constant can be changed.

[DavidW]

Well, two of my sonata sets have been relegated to Todd's Second Tier (Gulda on Amadeo and Kempff in stereo) - Andrea Lucchesini who I've heard and enjoy streaming is not a consideration for me because of the applause - NOW, I've been listening to Minsoo Sohn on Spotify and am enjoying but will this set ever be a 'physical package'?  I've also heard Pienaar on Spotify but has been a while, maybe another sampling.  But curious of what others think of Sohn and also how one might re-arrange that Top Tier?        Dave

Dave, I think the major labels have given up on physical media. I've noticed Sony and DG, in particular, releasing straight to digital and streaming with no plans for CD releases whatsoever.

[SonicMan46]

Dave, I think the major labels have given up on physical media. I've noticed Sony and DG, in particular, releasing straight to digital and streaming with no plans for CD releases whatsoever.

Hi David - well, my feeling also - 'streaming' has been the new norm (I've converted 3/4 of my DVD/BD collection to streamers and donated the physical packages to local charities).  I've also noticed that MP3 and lossless versions of recordings are often more expensive, e.g. was looking at Pineaar's Beethoven cycle on Prestomusic and their price was twice as much for the MP3 DL? (see attachment).  Dave

[Mandryka]

Hi David - well, my feeling also - 'streaming' has been the new norm (I've converted 3/4 of my DVD/BD collection to streamers and donated the physical packages to local charities).  I've also noticed that MP3 and lossless versions of recordings are often more expensive, e.g. was looking at Pineaar's Beethoven cycle on Prestomusic and their price was twice as much for the MP3 DL? (see attachment).  Dave

Write to Pienaar and Sohn. Butter them up -- you know how fragile the egos of musical people are. Tell them you love their music making and you want to buy physical copies of their CDs, can they help?

[DavidW]

Hi David - well, my feeling also - 'streaming' has been the new norm (I've converted 3/4 of my DVD/BD collection to streamers and donated the physical packages to local charities).  I've also noticed that MP3 and lossless versions of recordings are often more expensive, e.g. was looking at Pineaar's Beethoven cycle on Prestomusic and their price was twice as much for the MP3 DL? (see attachment).  Dave

I think more often find it the other way around: downloads are cheaper than CDs. But when the downloads are the overpriced ones, I'll just buy the CDs.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Well, two of my sonata sets have been relegated to Todd's Second Tier (Gulda on Amadeo and Kempff in stereo) - Andrea Lucchesini who I've heard and enjoy streaming is not a consideration for me because of the applause - NOW, I've been listening to Minsoo Sohn on Spotify and am enjoying but will this set ever be a 'physical package'?  I've also heard Pienaar on Spotify but has been a while, maybe another sampling.  But curious of what others think of Sohn and also how one might re-arrange that Top Tier?        Dave

Sohn is great. No great enthusiasm for Pienaar thus far. My only objection to Sohn is that his rhythms are not always precise. Examples: the eighth notes in the minuet of 2/1, the scherzo of 31/3 where he does not observe the distinction between the 16th notes and the 32nds (the ta-das!), and the opening movement of 57, where he plays the motif more like quarter-eighth rather than quarter-tied to sixteenth and then sixteenth as invariably written in the score. (For someone who gets 31/3 exactly right, listen to Kosuge or Kovacevich.) And if he plays the last high G in the first movement of 79, it escapes me.

I downloaded both Sohn and Lucchesini to my hard drive, and burned physical CDs for myself so I could listen on my CD player or in the car. This however required some tweaking:

For Lucchesini, I eliminated all the applause 'cause I hate applause in "live" recordings. This sometimes resulted in a fractional loss of decay on the last chords where the audience couldn't wait for the music to end before getting into the act, but better that then 10 seconds of audience interference.

I also "restored" some missing repeats - the exposition of 2/1, and the finale of 10/2.

I then assembled single tracks from movements where attacca subito is called for, such as all the movements of 27/1 and the Andante-Finale of 57. This is because my burner inserts 3 seconds of silence between tracks automatically.

For Sohn, I just assembled single tracks.

Each set of sonatas required 9 CDs.

[SonicMan46]

Sohn is great. No great enthusiasm for Pienaar thus far. My only objection to Sohn is that his rhythms are not always precise. Examples: the eighth notes in the minuet of 2/1, the scherzo of 31/3 where he does not observe the distinction between the 16th notes and the 32nds (the ta-das!), and the opening movement of 57, where he plays the motif more like quarter-eighth rather than quarter-tied to sixteenth and then sixteenth as invariably written in the score. (For someone who gets 31/3 exactly right, listen to Kosuge or Kovacevich.) And if he plays the last high G in the first movement of 79, it escapes me.

I downloaded both Sohn and Lucchesini to my hard drive, and burned physical CDs for myself so I could listen on my CD player or in the car. This however required some tweaking:

For Lucchesini........................

Thanks (poco) Sforzando for your excellent comments - the reviews on Pienaar have been somewhat mixed (e.g. on MusicWeb) - as to Sohn, Qobuz wants $130 USD as starters for a DL (attachment) - now I can DL from my Spotify account but have never (yet that is!  ) tried to transfer those DLs to another directory for potential burning to CD-R (if that would even be allowed by Spotify?). But I imagine that Sohn will become available from other sources, such as Prestomusic at a more reasonable price?  Thanks again  - Dave

[Todd]

Qobuz wants $130 USD as starters for a DL

7Digital has it for $109: https://us.7digital.com/artist/minsoo-sohn/release/beethoven-complete-piano-sonatas-12870224?f=20%2C19%2C12%2C16%2C17%2C9%2C2

But I imagine that Sohn will become available from other sources, such as Prestomusic at a more reasonable price?

It was released in 2020.  It has gone up in price since then.

[Mandryka]

A long time ago, I listened to pretty much every version of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 30, Op. 109 (it is easily my favorite), but recently I came across one that I missed, and it has skyrocketed to the top of my list - it is eye-opening from the get, the rolling of the notes, I can feel it in my fingers!

Backhaus. Firenze. 1969.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1jROtkvOwDM

This review of Backhaus's final concert has a good word for his style in op 109 -"tripping."

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Nov10/Beethoven_Backhaus_23420.htm


I've been enjoying Maria Tipo play it today, it's not tripping. An old Audite CD, I think it's the same as this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCSblcJ8IwQ

[DavidW]

(if that would even be allowed by Spotify?).

Nope. Downloading with DRM to be installed through the app: fine. Downloads of anything on Spotify to preserve on a separate hard drive would be straight-up piracy and not allowed by Spotify.

[(poco) Sforzando]

You can listen to all of Sohn's sonatas here for free, along with a PDF booklet referring to CD numbers. So it sounds like at one point there was a physical release planned, though whether it was ever released or not I have no idea.

https://minsoosohn.com/portfolio/beethoven-complete-piano-sonatas-2020/

[SonicMan46]

Nope. Downloading with DRM to be installed through the app: fine. Downloads of anything on Spotify to preserve on a separate hard drive would be straight-up piracy and not allowed by Spotify.

Thanks David - you know that I already knew this -      As a medical writer in my active days I helped write/edited a dozen textbooks - they seemed to be always pirated, esp. in China and India, so well aware of the issues and also agreeable with the laws governing copy protection.  Dave

[prémont]

You can listen to all of Sohn's sonatas here for free, along with a PDF booklet referring to CD numbers. So it sounds like at one point there was a physical release planned, though whether it was ever released or not I have no idea.

I have heard that a physical copy was released in South Korea a few years ago but went OOP in two years.

[DavidW]

Thanks David - you know that I already knew this -      As a medical writer in my active days I helped write/edited a dozen textbooks - they seemed to be always pirated, esp. in China and India, so well aware of the issues and also agreeable with the laws governing copy protection.  Dave

Yeah, but what is really frustrating about it is that so many (especially younger people) don't see it as wrong to pirate. I guess when you have no intellectual property of your own and your wallet is empty...

I'm not surprised that it would be China and India. They have this whole cottage industry of reproducing stolen textbooks.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Minsoo Sohn plays the Bagatelles, op. 126: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY_ZIc8BTj4

[(poco) Sforzando]

And if he plays the last high G in the first movement of 79, it escapes me.

Well, cranking up the volume all the way, I heard the last G just faintly.

As for the rhythms in the Appassionata, here's a demonstration. I notated a few passages into Finale, first "wrong" and then "right." (I will need two posts for this, for the attachments.) You may say this is trivial, and I can't deny there are many great performances that do not observe the written rhythms precisely. (I'll do something similar for 31/3 later.) But if you think the issue trivial, then you have to answer why Beethoven notated the motif as he did, when it would have been faster and easier to write just a quarter-eighth. This first post gives you the notation:

[(poco) Sforzando]

Now here's what this sounds like, played "wrong" and then "right":

An amusing story is that when I was studying 31/3, my teacher quite rightly insisted on observing the 16th-32nd note distinction in the scherzo, which means not taking a tempo so fast that this distinction is lost. However, when he programmed the Appassionata in a recital some years later (when I was no longer his piano student), he failed to play the rhythms as Beethoven wrote them. I was so furious that I didn't speak to him for years afterwards. You don't mess with LvB.

[Todd]

Well, cranking up the volume all the way, I heard the last G just faintly.

Sohn's cycle is best enjoyed at near-realistic volume levels.

It's informative that you mention the pianist's deviations from the score, especially given that he was grossly mischaracterized on this very forum as being mechanical or something along those lines.  Surely a piano playback mechanism would adhere to the score without exception.