String section layout

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

What are the benefits of having the violins of a string section bunched up on one side rather than at the front of the string section? Woodwind sections and most choirs I have seen and sung in have the higher pitches at the front and the lower ones at the back. Obviously, composers used the stereophonic aspect of the violins to their advantage anyway.

It always sounds a little bit weaker to have bass coming from one side rather than through the middle, directly towards the audience where it is more perceivably 'underneath' the higher strings rather than to the side of them.

Why is it currently the way it is?

[Drasko]

Traditional seating is the one with split violins, cellos and violas in the middle and basses across the back (if there is enough space) or along one side. Modern seating with all violins on left side and cellos on the right was invented by English conductor Henry Wood in 1910 or thereabouts. His reasoning was along the lines that this way coordination between first and second violins is easier, precision is better and asks for less rehearsal time. His type of seating was then picked by Koussevitzky and Stokowski for their American orchestras. I think Stokowski said in the 20s recording process was easier and the sound better with all violins bunched together. So modern seating first became standard in US and then came back to Europe via America. Though some orchestras kept the traditional seating all along: Vienna, Dresden, Leningrad ...  Today it's mostly up to the conductor, but it seems the traditional is making a bit of a comeback, which I personally like.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Oh I see! Well I guess professional orchestras have improved quite a lot since then so it doesn't really matter so much for rehearsal time anyway.

[Daverz]

There's also the matter of projecting a bigger string sound in bigger halls.

[Parsifal]

Given that the players face the center, violin players on he left have their instruments tilted towards the audience, causing them to project a bit more strongly. Putting second violins on the right means their instruments are tilted away from the audience, making their sound a bit weaker than the firsts. I like the split layout, which brings out antiphonal effects between violin sections.

[Jo498]

I prefer the "split" layout because many composers from Haydn through Mahler took it for granted and composed antiphonal/echo and similar effects. But apparently the massed violins on the left has a lot of advantages, especially for recordings because in my impression it completely dominated the recordings of the stereo era.
Except for some HIPsters (and e.g Harnoncourt unfortunately usually uses "all left" violins in most of his modern instrument recordings, e.g. the ones with the Concertgebouw) I can think mainly of three conductors who almost always used the "old" (2nd violins on the right) seating: Klemperer, Kubelik, Gielen.
Carlos Kleiber did it occasionally but not always (e.g. his Vienna Beethoven 7th has divided violins, the 5th from the same vintage does not)
There might be a few more using the old seating but most of the "mainstream" 60s-90s recordings of my recollection have all the violins on the left, e.g. Karajan, Böhm, Solti, Wand, Abbado etc.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Another thing, I can understand the reasons for having the violas on the right to get a stronger sound from the cellos between the violas and second violins when al the violins are on the left, but what do you think are the benefits of having the cellos directly on the right instead of the violas or violin 2?

[jochanaan]

Another thing, I can understand the reasons for having the violas on the right to get a stronger sound from the cellos between the violas and second violins when al the violins are on the left, but what do you think are the benefits of having the cellos directly on the right instead of the violas or violin 2?

Simple necessity.  The violins in most orchestras are as numerous as all the rest of the strings together, so if you put all the violins to audience left (stage right), the only place with enough room for the other strings is on audience right, stage left.  And the basses must be near the cellos, since they mostly play the same parts.  And cellos often carry a middle-voice melody (when they're not simply strengthening the bass line), so it's good to have them in front.

As far as I can determine from my studies and experiences, the advantages and disadvantages are about equal for the two most common seating patterns.  Often enough, all the violins play in unison or homophonically, so there is no advantage to splitting the two sections.  Yet there are many passages in good music in which antiphonal positioning works well, such as in the Finale of Beethoven 7 where a brief melodic fragment bounces rapidly from one violin section to the other and back.

[king ubu]

Interesting, was totally unaware of this so far ... have seen both at Zurich Tonhalle and have wondered about it, actually. Couldn't tell which conductor used the "split" set-up though, but going forward I'll watch out for it (tonight it will be Blomstedt conducting).

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

On a slightly related note about orchestral strings....I am curious as to when vibrato is used and when it isn't. I listened to a recording remastered using 'high end restoration technology' (according to the cover) of Mengelberg conducting Beethoven's 6th live in 1940 with the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra........I couldn't hear any vibrato at all in the string section (well maybe only a little bit occasionally) and I was wondering if this was something to do with post production? Or are they really playing this without the shakes and wobbles that create the mushy and hazy simultaneous vibrato effect we all know from the great 20th century string sections?

[king ubu]

Saw Blomstedt conduct the Tonhalle last week (magic!) and he seems to insist on the old ("german" v. "american" is another terminology it seems, obviously merikin being new) set-up. However, it seemed this was the first time that the sequence was: v 1, vc (basses behind), vla, v 2. Usually I think vc and vla would be the other way 'round? (I saw the basses spread in one row behind vc and vla as well ... I think with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe, but I couldn't tell for sure ... but ).

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Performing in the choir with the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra it was certainly interesting to see that the biggest problem in the early orchestral rehearsals was that the violins and the cellos/basses were not as together as I suppose they would be if the cellos were in the middle. Wouldn't having the cellos in the middle ensure that the entire string section is more likely to be synchronised, using the middle of the section as more of a rhythmic reference along with the conductor?

[RebLem]

Another thing, I can understand the reasons for having the violas on the right to get a stronger sound from the cellos between the violas and second violins when al the violins are on the left, but what do you think are the benefits of having the cellos directly on the right instead of the violas or violin 2?

I know Frank Miller, long the principal cellist @ the Chicago Symphony, liked it because critics often came up to him before concerts to ask him questions, and it was a nice, little ego trip for him.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

In a performance of Mozart's Requiem that I sung in the cellos were placed in the middle, next to the first violins, and so many ensemble issues were solved. The cellos were a much stronger 'foundation' for the entire orchestra to play above, and especially the first violins. The seconds had no issues at all being placed at the front of the ensemble on the other side. In fact, they ended up playing out a bit more and had a better dialogue with the first violins where necessary. The choir was organised from left to right SBTA to match the strings which were from left to right VI, Cello/Bass, Vla, VII.

The orchestra also played in that arrangement on the stage for a concert of music by film composer Joe Hisaishi, as that is his preferred string section layout, and again it worked extremely well. Because it is so efficient I wonder why this layout is taken up by many orchestras........

[king ubu]

LSO/Rattle used the split set-up again for Mahler 9 a couple of days ago ... and I really wonder why it's not the standard. Okay, the ego of cellists (also because you heard them better, at least in the seats up front) ... but that's no real reason. Rattle, if I remember right, had the violas second (next to the first violins) and then the cellos between violas and second violins (but I've seen both: v1-vla-vc-v2 and v1-vc-vla-c2). With the basses at the back of the cellos, that makes sense; but I guess whenever the cellos would be next to the first violins, the basses would be moved the left side instead of the right, to be at the back of the cellos.

In the opera, they always use the split seating as well (at least in Zurich they always do), but then they don't have much space usually 

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

LSO/Rattle used the split set-up again for Mahler 9 a couple of days ago ... and I really wonder why it's not the standard. Okay, the ego of cellists (also because you heard them better, at least in the seats up front) ... but that's no real reason. Rattle, if I remember right, had the violas second (next to the first violins) and then the cellos between violas and second violins (but I've seen both: v1-vla-vc-v2 and v1-vc-vla-c2). With the basses at the back of the cellos, that makes sense; but I guess whenever the cellos would be next to the first violins, the basses would be moved the left side instead of the right, to be at the back of the cellos.

In the opera, they always use the split seating as well (at least in Zurich they always do), but then they don't have much space usually 

'Where the basses go' is a conundrum I actually think is best solved by the Wiener Philharmoniker (despite my reservations about the quality of the orchestra as a whole). Putting them at the back, and letting them project loud and clear above the whole orchestra just somehow seems appropriate considering their role and function in the majority of works in the orchestral canon.

[king ubu]

'Where the basses go' is a conundrum I actually think is best solved by the Wiener Philharmoniker (despite my reservations about the quality of the orchestra as a whole). Putting them at the back, and letting them project loud and clear above the whole orchestra just somehow seems appropriate considering their role and function in the majority of works in the orchestral canon.

Well, they're always the back, aren't they? At least here, they are. But the question is to which side of the back, left or right of the horns? And if memory doesn't trick me, they were always on the side the celli were, further back and somewhat further to that side. In the modern set-up (celli to the right) they would usually be far on the right side, but still behind two rows of celli, so in fact the end up more behind the violas then the celli.