Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Madiel]

The sentence about Mahler's hi-fi setup is a weak attempt at humor.

Others beg to differ.

But actually I wasn't aiming at anything higher than a mild chuckle, so describing it as "weak" matters very little to me. The main point was to start actually talking about Mahler again. If you want to talk about audio setups, I won't be joining you.

[hopefullytrusting]

This my be my favorite Mahler recording:

It is Mahler playing Mahler's Symphony No. 5 on a piano, and it is something special.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK8l47x6mVc

[AnotherSpin]

Others beg to differ.

But actually I wasn't aiming at anything higher than a mild chuckle, so describing it as "weak" matters very little to me. The main point was to start actually talking about Mahler again. If you want to talk about audio setups, I won't be joining you.

As you've probably noticed, my post didn't really kick anything off — it was simply a response to yours and a few others earlier in the thread. Naturally, I'm not keen on discussing high-end audio here. There's little point in talking about something that most people (with a few exceptions) wouldn't know from a bar of soap

[Florestan]

1. Emotional Impact - premium sound systems reveal the full emotional depth of classical music, capturing nuances and drama often lost on basic setups - recreating the feeling of a live concert.

2. Clarity of Complex Soundscapes - they faithfully reproduce intricate arrangements, dynamic shifts, and subtle details, allowing listeners to fully appreciate the music's structure and tension.

3. Immersive Experience - high-end systems minimize distortion and offer rich, lifelike sound, creating the sensation of being in the room with the orchestra or soloist.

4. Respect for Artistic Vision - superior audio preserves the composer's and performers' intent, ensuring that classical works are heard as they were meant to be - not as background noise.

5. Cultural Sophistication - such systems enhance the sense of refinement associated with classical music, adding an element of luxury to the listening experience.

This crap is obviously copy-pasted from some advertisement.

"classical works are heard as they were meant to be - not as background noise." --- if we take classical in the chronological sense, tons of works written during that era were precisely background music.  And then there is Satie's musique d'ameublement, too.

"Cultural Sophistication" --- lovely euphemism for snobbery. 

[Roasted Swan]

The sentence about Mahler's hi-fi setup is a weak attempt at humor. It's a pointless historical aside that doesn't add anything meaningful to the discussion. If you're gonna critique audiophile elitism, stick to the point and avoid silly tangents.

Of course, there's little point in explaining the joys of skiing to someone who's never seen snow — but still, I believe there are a few arguments in favor of listening to classical music on high-quality audio equipment, vinyl included:

1. Emotional Impact - premium sound systems reveal the full emotional depth of classical music, capturing nuances and drama often lost on basic setups - recreating the feeling of a live concert.

2. Clarity of Complex Soundscapes - they faithfully reproduce intricate arrangements, dynamic shifts, and subtle details, allowing listeners to fully appreciate the music's structure and tension.

3. Immersive Experience - high-end systems minimize distortion and offer rich, lifelike sound, creating the sensation of being in the room with the orchestra or soloist.

4. Respect for Artistic Vision - superior audio preserves the composer's and performers' intent, ensuring that classical works are heard as they were meant to be - not as background noise.

5. Cultural Sophistication - such systems enhance the sense of refinement associated with classical music, adding an element of luxury to the listening experience.

....... and relax...........

[Madiel]

I missed the bit about the sense of refinement associated with classical music... this is so very ahistorical, and also un-Mahlerian which I'll get to a in a moment. The term "classical" basically came about because of people in the later 19th century disliking the music around them and pining for the classics. They don't make music like they used to, etc. etc.

But at the time that music was written, it wasn't necessarily refined. Perhaps one that Haydn wasn't thought so highly of in that era was that his "cultural sophistication" included writing a fart joke in one of his symphonies. Mind you, I've recently discovered that Mozart wrote a few songs with very rude words, but those were small works that the refined aesthetes could safely ignore.

But this is a Mahler thread. And if there's one thing I've learned about Mahler, it's that some of his music is supposed to sound pretty ugly if you really go for it. This is partly so that the transcendent bits sound even more transcendent, I grant you, but if your Mahler is "refined" I would argue it's probably not terribly good Mahler. The man is most often trying to blow your socks off, not host a garden afternoon tea.

Anyway, nobody, but nobody, was actually arguing against the benefits of a good quality sound system. But we aren't all made of either the time or money to constantly fret about whether our sound system is good enough. I also disgust some of my friends by being willing to drink instant coffee, and I regard my car as a nice means of getting around whereas I lose track of the number of vehicles one of my neighbours is tinkering with and juicing up.

We all have different priorities, and in fact my sound system ain't half bad in comparison to the general populace but I'm sure there are people on this forum who would regard it with disdain. Which is irrelevant. The question isn't whether anybody else would be happy with it, the question is whether I'M happy with it. And the answer is basically yes. I mean, I went hunting for it in Sydney while on a work trip and I think I might have got the 2nd-last one in the country, so do not for one minute think that I didn't make any effort!

Over and out.

[relm1]

This my be my favorite Mahler recording:

It is Mahler playing Mahler's Symphony No. 5 on a piano, and it is something special.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK8l47x6mVc

That was cool!  Closest I think we'll get to hearing him conduct.

[hopefullytrusting]

That was cool!  Closest I think we'll get to hearing him conduct.

There's an entire CD of Mahler playing Mahler (the 4th Symphony, 4th movement, for example)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uGw1BMCBRMc

And it is very cool.

[AnotherSpin]

I missed the bit about the sense of refinement associated with classical music... this is so very ahistorical, and also un-Mahlerian which I'll get to a in a moment. The term "classical" basically came about because of people in the later 19th century disliking the music around them and pining for the classics. They don't make music like they used to, etc. etc.

But at the time that music was written, it wasn't necessarily refined. Perhaps one that Haydn wasn't thought so highly of in that era was that his "cultural sophistication" included writing a fart joke in one of his symphonies. Mind you, I've recently discovered that Mozart wrote a few songs with very rude words, but those were small works that the refined aesthetes could safely ignore.

But this is a Mahler thread. And if there's one thing I've learned about Mahler, it's that some of his music is supposed to sound pretty ugly if you really go for it. This is partly so that the transcendent bits sound even more transcendent, I grant you, but if your Mahler is "refined" I would argue it's probably not terribly good Mahler. The man is most often trying to blow your socks off, not host a garden afternoon tea.

Anyway, nobody, but nobody, was actually arguing against the benefits of a good quality sound system. But we aren't all made of either the time or money to constantly fret about whether our sound system is good enough. I also disgust some of my friends by being willing to drink instant coffee, and I regard my car as a nice means of getting around whereas I lose track of the number of vehicles one of my neighbours is tinkering with and juicing up.

We all have different priorities, and in fact my sound system ain't half bad in comparison to the general populace but I'm sure there are people on this forum who would regard it with disdain. Which is irrelevant. The question isn't whether anybody else would be happy with it, the question is whether I'M happy with it. And the answer is basically yes. I mean, I went hunting for it in Sydney while on a work trip and I think I might have got the 2nd-last one in the country, so do not for one minute think that I didn't make any effort!

Over and out.

For some reason, I have not the slightest doubt that you perfectly understood what I meant when I spoke of the refinement inherent in serious music — just as there is, perhaps, a touch of refinement in the very impulse to be drawn to it. After all, let's not pretend otherwise: in the eyes of the average person, the mere fact of being passionate about serious music is practically an unforgivable form of snobbery, and bound to invite a certain amount of disapproval. Isn't that so? Of course, I'm speaking within the cultural context of our times. Set Mahler or Haydn side by side with the mechanical, numbing monotony of the pop music that saturates every corner of public space — and tell me, is serious music not, at the very least, a little more refined by comparison? But if the word "refinement" troubles you, by all means, substitute it with something else. I won't quibble. I rather suspect that, whichever word you choose, you understand perfectly well what I mean.

Addred: I grew up in a country where the slogan "art belongs to the people" echoed from every corner — where art was expected to be simple enough for every common man to grasp. Spare me the familiar arguments; I've heard them all before. I, on the other hand, stand firmly on the side of refinement. I see no tragedy in the fact that the machinist or the ploughman might not understand the music I choose to live with. I won't be offended if someone starts calling me a snob — that is, a person who values sophistication, beauty, and exclusivity. As for the critics, I leave them to enjoy balalaikas.

[André]

My first Mahler LP was of the 4th symphony:



Decca reissued it in its Ovation series as well as a discmate to Solti's Chicago 5th on a double decker set. Last week a friend let me hear his copy of its cd reincarnation on Decca. It's very hard to find nowadays but I managed to order a copy on Discogs yesterday.

The 4th is Mahler's shortest symphony (along with no 1) and yet it's hard to bring off. Most 'name' conductors mishandle its character and attempt to make it sound bigger than it is in structure and orchestration (most of it very light and often wind based). Solti would later re-record it in Chicago but it's slicker, punchier yet smoother-sounding than this magical Concertgebouw version.

This is a unique orchestra show: no band has achieved the personality and character displayed here by the Amsterdam band - winds and horns especially (My! The horns... !!!). Solti re-recorded it later with much the same tempi, but the orchestral contribution is merely excellent and efficient. The Amsterdam oboe, clarinet, bassoon and horns (My! The horns... !!!) have unique tone and phrasing.

Soprano Sylvia Stahlmann has a light, chirping, boyish tone, totally appropriate for her part. One of the best, along with Nethania Davrath (Abravanel), Teresa Stich-Randall (van Otterloo) and Judith Raskin (Szell).

[hopefullytrusting]

My first Mahler LP was of the 4th symphony:



Decca reissued it in its Ovation series as well as a discmate to Solti's Chicago 5th on a double decker set. Last week a friend let me hear his copy of its cd reincarnation on Decca. It's very hard to find nowadays but I managed to order a copy on Discogs yesterday.

The 4th is Mahler's shortest symphony (along with no 1) and yet it's hard to bring off. Most 'name' conductors mishandle its character and attempt to make it sound bigger than it is in structure and orchestration (most of it very light and often wind based). Solti would later re-record it in Chicago but it's slicker, punchier yet smoother-sounding than this magical Concertgebouw version.

This is a unique orchestra show: no band has achieved the personality and character displayed here by the Amsterdam band - winds and horns especially (My! The horns... !!!). Solti re-recorded it later with much the same tempi, but the orchestral contribution is merely excellent and efficient. The Amsterdam oboe, clarinet, bassoon and horns (My! The horns... !!!) have unique tone and phrasing.

Soprano Sylvia Stahlmann has a light, chirping, boyish tone, totally appropriate for her part. One of the best, along with Nethania Davrath (Abravanel), Teresa Stich-Randall (van Otterloo) and Judith Raskin (Szell).

My first Mahler I picked up from CD Trader (now, long, long, long, long gone), and it was his Titan conducted by Maazel with the WP:



I picked it up solely for aesthetic purposes at the time, as I had never heard of the composer prior to this disc, but it was a plain dark brown, and I thought that interesting as pretty much all cds are bright chrome, but as soon as I heard that opening - I was in love (still my favorite version of the symphony, even though I know it isn't the best). Maybe the best symphonic opening ever?

This was my second Mahler disc: Symphony 2 with Metha and the WP:



I figured if I liked the first, I'd like the second.

And I was right. :-)

Maybe the best 1-2 symphonic punch.

[AnotherSpin]

My first Mahler LP was of the 4th symphony:

[...]

My first Mahler was also the 4th Symphony, a double LP by Melodiya, which I bought somewhere in the late 1970s, I think. It was conducted by Fedoseyev, and the recording took up three sides, but I don't remember what was on the fourth side.

By a strange coincidence, the first Mahler I heard in concert was also the 4th, performed by the Boston Symphony Orchestra with Seiji Ozawa in Vienna, in the early 1990s. Need I say that the Fourth holds a special place for me and I always listen to it with pleasure.