And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020

[SimonNZ]

The people I follow have not talked about Bernie's housing plans so I don't know much about them, but what you say sounds right-wing fearmongering.

Why don't you know about them? I mean given that he seems to be your every waking thought? I'd expect you to know his every position backwards by now and be able to quote his own words on any issue verbatim.

Is it that you don't get your information on Sanders from Sanders own writing or directly from his own campaign but exclusively from what your Youtubers happen to feel like commenting on? How many other gaps are there in their commentary, do you suppose? Perhaps Sanders has a number of polices you'd disagree with that you're not being made aware of. Read his own writings and see if it really is consistent with Kyle's "reporting".

[JBS]

The people I follow have not talked about Bernie's housing plans so I don't know much about them, but what you say sounds right-wing fearmongering.

Actually I got my information about his plans from his own website.  I just read them, and noticed what his campaign's description said.

[Karl Henning]

The people I follow have not talked about Bernie's housing plans so I don't know much about them

An intelligent free-thinker would have perceived by now the shortcomings of relying on biased second-hand sources.

But not you.

[JBS]

Not all members here write ignorant stuff (about US politics), but amazingly many do. I am surprised how many here doesn't seem to understand the rise of populist left in the US and how regular people are totally ready and even demanding changes that are based on lefty ideology.

I don't know everything and I am willing to learn more when the facts prove me wrong I admit it. I am arrogant because people here have horrible attitude (foreigners can't know US politics/lefty youtubers lie etc. nonsense).

Actually close to 40% of Americans are demanding changes that are based on rightwing ideologies. They are the ones who support Trump.

[BasilValentine]

Quite so, the current tax and regulatory structure benefits entrenched, large firms and creates hurdles for startups, small firms and people who are starting out. Economic dynamism has decreased across the U.S. since the early 1990s, as tax on corporations and high incomes have been dramatically reduced. The tax cuts enacted during the last three years were supposed to spur business investment, instead it seems to have simply benefited near monopoly firms and given them more power to suppress competition.

https://ig.ft.com/us-economic-dynamism/
https://hbr.org/2018/03/is-lack-of-competition-strangling-the-u-s-economy

Well yeah, the supply side, trickle down nonsense is laughable of course. Economic stimulus and dynamism would be more effectively furthered by simply dropping loads of cash from airplanes. And the process would be way more festive.

[71 dB]

Why don't you know about them?

I know Bernie tries to fix things, get a roof over the heads of people living in the streets, but I don't know the details I admit.

Bernie's pages say this:

Homelessness: We must increase affordable housing and work to reduce homelessness, especially among veterans.

Bernie has released a detailed plan The Right to a Secure Retirement to protect and expand Social Security, protect Pensions, Expand the Older Americans Act, and so much more. He has also released a Housing for All plan that would make it a fundamental right to have a safe, decent, accessible, and affordable home.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/housing-all/

[71 dB]

An intelligent free-thinker would have perceived by now the shortcomings of relying on biased second-hand sources.

But not you.

At least I am not as dumb as you relying on corporate media.

[71 dB]

Actually close to 40% of Americans are demanding changes that are based on rightwing ideologies. They are the ones who support Trump.

It's not that simple. Some people voted for Trump because he campaigned more left than Hillary. Supporting the wall doesn't mean you oppose higher minimum wage. The reason you support the wall is the brown people keep wages low for you. That's whu many WOULD HAVE voted for Bernie in 2016. People are right-wing socially, not economically. They struggle economically. They need healthcare too.

[SimonNZ]

Bernie's pages say this:



Bernie has released a detailed plan .

And you haven't read that "plan", have you?

You sound like one of those Christian zealots who hasn't read the Bible. The details would just get in the way. Better to just project onto it your preconceived notions.

[Herman]

To be fair, poor people don't run successful businesses and create jobs, the wealthy do.

That's a rather naive idea.
Many of the  very wealthy have gotten their billions by downsizing labor and outsourcing, chopping up and slashing companies.
Of course your president used to have a reputation of hiring undocumented workers and stiffing them on their pay, by threatening to call in the cops to check their papers.
In addition I suggest we tone down the discussion a bit, partly by getting used to the possibility that B. Sanders (I / D) is going to be the Dem nominee. That's a lot better than Uncle Joe.

[71 dB]

And you haven't read that "plan", have you?

You sound like one of those Christian zealots who hasn't read the Bible. The details would just get in the way. Better to just project onto it your preconceived notions.

Well have you? I have never claimed to be an expert of Bernie's housing plan. I said I don't know the details. Bernie has TONS of detailed policy proposals and knowing it all would take a lot of studying. I trust his proposals are good, superior to other candidates because he is the true progressive.

[71 dB]

To be fair, poor people don't run successful businesses and create jobs, the wealthy do.

60 % of the wealth in the US is inherited. It's much easier to create jobs if you inherit a couple of millions compared to nothing.

[Marc]

Bernie Sanders being your avatar tells me everything I need to know about you and your political leanings and I think it's moronic how you're so worried about American politics, because they don't affect you one iota nor do they concern you. Again, as I've said before, you really need to stick to music.

Personally, I'm never happy with words like 'moronic'.

I have no intention of banning the discussion of politics on this forum. It is a legitimate areas of discussion. It is not illegal and does not contravene the rules of the forum (or civilised countries) in any way, so they will stay.

Please discuss politics. Argue politics. Robustly. They deserve to be discussed and argued. But do NOT use the excuse of politics to attack any other member of the forum. You can say "I disagree with your political views". You cannot say "You are an idiot because of your political views". Simple, isn't it?

[...]

Besides that, if 'reasoning' like this becomes the normal way to argue about whatever here, then why do you yourself bovver about anything at all?
He's Finnish, you're not. Why bovver?
He's bovvered about the USA, you can't be bovvered by his bovvering. Again: why bovver?

He likes Elgar, you like Debussy. So?
He's changed his avatar maybe 2 or 3 times the last 12 years, you about 1.947 times. What does that say about anyone? anyhow? And why bovver?

My advice at least would be: be happy that people from allied (and other) countries bovver about what happens in yours. You don't have to agree with their opinions, but at least they are bovvered and they show some interest. And what the USA does or does not has got great impact on their allies. So yes, we're interested and we care.

Personally, I might find the 'crawl back within one's 'own' borders' mentality more worrying. It just won't work anymore, whether we like it or not. The world has become a village in the last 100 to 150 years. This forum actually being one of the many proofs of that. You might as well get used to it.

[Florestan]

The people I follow have not talked about Bernie's housing plans so I don't know much about them

In other words, you openly acknowledge that you know about Bernie and his policies only what the people you follow tell you and that you don't know much about things the people you follow tell you nothing about. You did not even bother to read Bernie's own site until challenged by JBS. Your whole information is taken from a biased, cherry-picking, second-hand source. And yet you lose no opportunity to boast of your vast knowledge about, and understanding of, US politics and to trash everuone who disagrees with you. If that's free thinking then I'm Pope Francis.

[Marc]

[...] If that's free thinking then I'm Pope Francis.

I always thought you were.

The Vatican has long arms.
(I read that somewhere. Forgot the details.)

[Florestan]

be happy that people from allied (and other) countries bovver about what happens in yours. You don't have to agree with their opinions, but at least they are bovvered and they show some interest. And what the USA does or does not has got great impact on their allies. So yes, we're interested and we care.

In principle there's nothing wrong with a non-American being interested in American politics but when it becomes as obsessive, opinionated and misinformed a fixation as Poju's then something is clearly amiss.

[Florestan]

I always thought you were.

The Vatican has long arms.
(I read that somewhere. Forgot the details.)

[Marc]

In principle there's nothing wrong with a non-American being interested in American politics but when it becomes as obsessive, opinionated and misinformed a fixation as Poju's then something is clearly amiss.

Come on... there are plenty of members on this MUSIC forum who mainly show interest in political topics.
(And the 'moronic' references I can still do without.)

And he's quite right in some things: Sanders is doing pretty well so far (despite the fact that the 'core Democrats' are mostly all against him, no surprise, after all he's actually an Independent), and yes, social democracy has brought good things to North-West Europe. The stats of those countries (Scandinavia, Netherlands, Belgium), both in welfare and prosperity, aren't all that bad. But, since it's almost considered communism by many many (and many) USA citizens, I don't think that Sanders has got a chance to become the next POTUS. And even if he were elected, then I fear that he will have many many (and many) problems to get the bulk of his ideas through Congress.

[Florestan]

Come on... there are plenty of members on this MUSIC forum who mainly show interest in political topics.

That's true but none of them exhibit the same degree of fixation and none of them claim to be the only knowledgeable person while all others are dupes.

(And the 'moronic' references I can still do without.)

Agreed again but may I respectfully remind you that most people in this thread have been repeatedly insulted by Poju and I didn't see you intervening to rebuke him on those occasions.

And he's quite right in some things: Sanders is doing pretty well so far (despite the fact that the 'core Democrats' are mostly all against him, no surprise, after all he's actually an Independent), and yes, social democracy has brought good things to North-West Europe. The stats of those countries (Scandinavia, Netherlands, Belgium), both in welfare and prosperity, aren't all that bad.

There's no denying of any of the above.

But, since it's almost considered communism by many many (and many) USA citizens, I don't think that Sanders has got a chance to become the next POTUS. And even if he were elected, then I fear that he will have many many (and many) problems to get the bulk of his ideas through Congress.

See? Although I'm sure you don't follow the Young Turks you have a far more realistic picture of how US politics works than Poju, for all his speniding the whole day listening to Kyle Kulinsky, will ever have.

[71 dB]

In other words, you openly acknowledge that you know about Bernie and his policies only what the people you follow tell you and that you don't know much about things the people you follow tell you nothing about. You did not even bother to read Bernie's own site until challenged by JBS. Your whole information is taken from a biased, cherry-picking, second-hand source. And yet you lose no opportunity to boast of your vast knowledge about, and understanding of, US politics and to trash everuone who disagrees with you. If that's free thinking then I'm Pope Francis.

One voter found out AFTER voting for Buttigieg in Iowa caucus he is gay and lives with a man. I think I am better informed than many americans who actually cast their vote. Do you know every detail of every policy of every candidate yourself? I doubt that. I'm sure Bernie is the non-brainer next president for the US without knowing every detail.