Piano Concerto No.1 in G min

[MarkMcD]

Hi all,

I've not posted anything for quite a while, been busy with other things, but I have kept working on my first fully orchestrated piano concerto, and finally I have it finished.

I did post the first movement here around a year ago, but it's been heavily re-written since then, also the second and third movements are new.

Orchestration is a fairly new experiment for me and I would appreciate any input as to any common mistakes I've made and how to rectify them, other then that, any comments are as always, gratefully received.

The score is a mess, I provide it only for those who like to read and listen at the same time, but it's not my first priority to have an impeccable score since no one is ever likely to have to play it, and as some of you know, it is sometimes necessary to write things that should not appear in a conductors copy, in order for Sibelius to play the piece as required.  However, if there are glaring mistakes (when, there are glaring mistakes) then feel free to point them out.

Thanks in advance to anyone who listens.

Kind regards
Mark

https://soundcloud.com/user-729021187/piano-concerto-no1-in-g-minor

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n8v7qnfojwjqsdd/piano%20concerto%20no.pdf?dl=0

[MarkMcD]

At the time of writing this, 892 people have looked at the thread, I'm quite surprised that not 1 person had anything to say, either good or bad.  In the time I've been a member of this forum, I've commented on hundreds of works and always try to be honest and constructive.  If I find I can't be either of those things, then I prefer not to comment.  Under those circumstances I can't help be draw conclusions on the state of my thread and my music.

Thanks anyway to those who listened.

[relm1]

At the time of writing this, 892 people have looked at the thread, I'm quite surprised that not 1 person had anything to say, either good or bad.  In the time I've been a member of this forum, I've commented on hundreds of works and always try to be honest and constructive.  If I find I can't be either of those things, then I prefer not to comment.  Under those circumstances I can't help be draw conclusions on the state of my thread and my music.

Thanks anyway to those who listened.

Do I not exist?  I gave you extensive feedback.  Perhaps my time was wasted.  We literally had this huge exchange, you impatient twat.


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Re: Piano Concerto No.1 in G minor 1st movement
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2018, 01:15:19 AM »

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There's only one thing worse than having your work disliked by people, at least to be disliked is to provoke some reaction, but when your work is not even worth a comment, either good or bad, then I think it's time to stop posting it.
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Re: Piano Concerto No.1 in G minor 1st movement
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2018, 06:18:29 AM »

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I will set some time aside to listen today.
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Re: Piano Concerto No.1 in G minor 1st movement
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2018, 07:31:31 AM »

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Overall, I found it economical in instrumentation and execution.  The structure and scoring for wind quintet, piano, and strings gives it a Haydn feel.  Uncharacteristically, there isn't much counterpoint which a classical work by Haydn, Mozart, etc., would be full of.  There is a lot of triplet writing in the piano without much variation of the piano doing scales in triplets.  The voice leading could be improved to make the orchestral writing more imaginative.  For example, in bars 25 to 27 the orchestra is in parallel motion (actually it is way frequently used here), and it is the least interesting voice leading.  Ideally, the outer voices are in contrary motion.  Try handing off the rhythm between instruments groups.  Think of it sort of as a call and response.  For example, on page 11, nearly every note is a quarter note (sure, I see a few half notes but where is the rhythmic variation?   You do this more on page 83 but overall it could be done much more.  "pm" dynamic in the piano at bar 43?  I liked that in bar 45 you pull out all the low instruments which gives some welcome relief in the overly thick texture.  There is too much tutti where everyone plays together.  That is actually one of the things where a little goes a long way.  I play low brass in orchestras and Mussorgsky/Ravel's Picture's at an Exhibition is a piece I would consider "brassy" and full of tutti's while listening.  Surprisingly, I actually tacet through have the work.  Half of what remains I am quiet.  So only around 25% of the work that is a pretty thick orchestral work is everyone playing.   I think you would get a lot out of this very fine and brief video "What is Good Orchestration" by Alan Belkin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHd7Gxwjyo8 where in this five minute video he transforms a short orchestral excerpt going from not very good to very polished.  I also think you might want to seek out a local composition teacher because you have good ideas and understanding of what you want it to do musically and can benefit from further study.  Good luck!
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Re: Piano Concerto No.1 in G minor 1st movement
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2018, 09:15:43 AM »

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Thank you Relm1 I really appreciate your comments.

I'm basically self taught with very little formal musical training, only having taken piano lessons as a child and only then to grade 3 so I really have little theory to fall back on.  I would really love to have composition lessons but I can't really afford that.

I've also never played any instrument other than the piano, and so I know that my orchestral writing is all guess work really.  Having said all that, I really do take my writing seriously and so I really appreciate your suggestions and I will keep it all in mind.  I think also I'll watch that you tube video quite a few times, thanks for that.


Best regards
Mark


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Re: Piano Concerto No.1 in G minor 1st movement
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2018, 04:15:18 PM »

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Quote from: MarkMcD on October 18, 2018, 09:15:43 AM

    Thank you Relm1 I really appreciate your comments.

    I'm basically self taught with very little formal musical training, only having taken piano lessons as a child and only then to grade 3 so I really have little theory to fall back on.  I would really love to have composition lessons but I can't really afford that.

    I've also never played any instrument other than the piano, and so I know that my orchestral writing is all guess work really.  Having said all that, I really do take my writing seriously and so I really appreciate your suggestions and I will keep it all in mind.  I think also I'll watch that you tube video quite a few times, thanks for that.

    Best regards
    Mark


There is a lot you can learn on your own but there is only so far that will take you.  But it all depends on what your goals are.  If it is to have fun, then you can probably satisfy that urge with good texts and youtube instructional videos (though one could counter you would better achieve your goal if you had a greater command of the skills necessary to compose a large scale orchestral work such as a piano concerto).  We are lucky to live in a time where so much good content is available for free.  Cost really shouldn't be a factor and here is why.  Any training is better than no training.  I started composing before I ever had a single music lesson when I was a teen...and it showed.  In college, I needed to take an elective so took piano performance.  The desire to write didn't go away so I eventually said I would take one more elective in music theory and felt at that point I would know what I needed to compose large scale works.  I had no idea how little I knew.  Every class I took made me realize I needed more study to understand the topic.  I eventually completed my masters degree in composition.  Now I feel like I am starting to learn music (and there is so much more to learn).  I have also come to learn many of the composers I most admire are life long students.  They just want to get better than they were last year even when they are in their mid 80's.  So learning eventually becomes part of your life goal.  Even getting a tutor to help you on some areas you need most dire help with (fundamentals of orchestration, harmony, counterpoint, form) is beneficial.  These topics take years to get a solid understanding of.  Even five private lessons is better than one but one is better than none.  There are also many schools that have evening adult classes and in large arts centric cities, you can take some pretty comprehensive evening classes for low cost.  Alternatively hire a composition student to mentor you.  All of this is better than nothing.  I hope this doesn't sound in any way condescending, I am just giving you honest feedback and encouraging your interest.  Best of luck.
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Re: Piano Concerto No.1 in G minor 1st movement
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2018, 03:20:54 AM »

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Thanks Relm1,

No I didn't find it condescending at all, and I agree with you 100%.  My knowledge of music theory is very basic and any tuition would be better than none at all.  I do watch lots of you tube videos on the various parts of music theory and I suppose that I do learn a little from that.  Unfortunately I don't live in a big city, but a rather sleepy Spanish village, albeit larger than average, the arts are not really very well represented here.  I have looked for night classes but there are none anywhere near.

Still, I write because I love it, not because I want to be a famous composer.  I'm sure that everyone who composes music would give anything to have it performed by a real orchestra and I am no different, but I really hold no illusions that that will ever happen.  For one thing, my music is not really relevant in todays values, being that it harks back to music of the past.  I do feel that I have my own voice, I never try to write like anyone, but inevitably the music that I produce is often called (rather shallowly I have to say) pastiche.  I don't mind, I write it for me, if someone else likes it too along the way, then that is a happy bonus.

Until now I have mostly written piano music, sometimes accompanied by another instrument or two, but these last couple of pieces are really my first foray into writing for a bigger ensemble.  My aim in posting my music is not really to garner praise (although that is always nice), but rather to garner advice on how to improve them.  I would also consider myself a life long student.  I'm now 52.  Like most people I had a very busy work schedule and so music was very secondary, but recently I was able to leave work and so dedicate more time to music.  I joined a few forums a couple of years ago, and mostly I have had a positive experience, but I do feel largely ignored on a couple of them even though I do participate and give comments to others, such as I can give which is not much.  I'm sure the cause is as I mentioned before, that my music is not of interest to most of the more active members of the forum.  That's not to criticise them, they have their interests the same as anyone else, and if my work doesn't fall within those interests, I can hardly blame them.  However, it's not really meeting my hopes in posting my work, and is also quite disheartening.  I doesn't put me off writing though, just puts me off wanting to post work anymore.

I would however like to thank you for taking time to talk with me and give me some valuable advice, I really do appreciate it.

Kind regards
Mark

[MarkMcD]

Hello Relm1,

I'm sorry you felt personally aggrieved by my post.  I do indeed remember our exchange and I also remember thanking you very much and being very grateful for your response.  This however was a response to a post in late 2018 for the 1st movement of the piece.  The thread I recently started is for the full 3 movements of the piece, the second and third movements have never been posted here and the first movement had also been amended since our exchange in October of 2018.

Since the piece posted here is significantly different to the post you initially replied to, I don't think it's unreasonable to give it a new thread, and hope for new responses to the new material, of which there is much, at least 10 minutes of new material that has never been posted here.  As for being impatient, I think 2 weeks and now 900 odd views without so much as a "like", it's not being unreasonable to wonder why nobody is saying anything.  I don't think it's a question of the length of time either, when 900 people look at something, the law of averages says that at least 1 or 2 people would have said something.  I also went back and had a look at my original post from October 2018, of the unamended first movement and you were the only person who responded to that post, after it had been open around 4 weeks without any response.   I had posted several bumps to the thread and finally expressed disappointment at the fact that no one had said anything.  It was at that point you responded.  I would understand perfectly if I only posted my own work and never commented on others work, but that is not the case.

I was then and still am very grateful to you for having taken time to respond to me and in no way was I intending to make you feel like you wasted your time.  However, I at no time referred to you or anyone personally and I really don't think that there is any need to get personally insulting.  Your personal opinion may well be that I am an impatient twat, but was there really any need to post that on a public forum?

[Brian]

Mark,
Many of the "views" are unfortunately bots and crawlers. For example, when Google indexes a page, a computer "views" the page and adds it to search listings. So one of those 900 viewers - actually, probably 2 or 3 of them - are Google computers adding you to search. And there are surely others from Bing, Internet Archive, etc.

[relm1]

Hello Relm1,

I'm sorry you felt personally aggrieved by my post.  I do indeed remember our exchange and I also remember thanking you very much and being very grateful for your response.  This however was a response to a post in late 2018 for the 1st movement of the piece.  The thread I recently started is for the full 3 movements of the piece, the second and third movements have never been posted here and the first movement had also been amended since our exchange in October of 2018.

Since the piece posted here is significantly different to the post you initially replied to, I don't think it's unreasonable to give it a new thread, and hope for new responses to the new material, of which there is much, at least 10 minutes of new material that has never been posted here.  As for being impatient, I think 2 weeks and now 900 odd views without so much as a "like", it's not being unreasonable to wonder why nobody is saying anything.  I don't think it's a question of the length of time either, when 900 people look at something, the law of averages says that at least 1 or 2 people would have said something.  I also went back and had a look at my original post from October 2018, of the unamended first movement and you were the only person who responded to that post, after it had been open around 4 weeks without any response.   I had posted several bumps to the thread and finally expressed disappointment at the fact that no one had said anything.  It was at that point you responded.  I would understand perfectly if I only posted my own work and never commented on others work, but that is not the case.

I was then and still am very grateful to you for having taken time to respond to me and in no way was I intending to make you feel like you wasted your time.  However, I at no time referred to you or anyone personally and I really don't think that there is any need to get personally insulting.  Your personal opinion may well be that I am an impatient twat, but was there really any need to post that on a public forum?

Sir, I regret being so civil.  You've touched on a pet peeve.  Best you let this die off and learn how to patiently accept feedback. 

[Karl Henning]

Hello Relm1,

I'm sorry you felt personally aggrieved by my post.  I do indeed remember our exchange and I also remember thanking you very much and being very grateful for your response.  This however was a response to a post in late 2018 for the 1st movement of the piece.  The thread I recently started is for the full 3 movements of the piece, the second and third movements have never been posted here and the first movement had also been amended since our exchange in October of 2018.

Since the piece posted here is significantly different to the post you initially replied to, I don't think it's unreasonable to give it a new thread, and hope for new responses to the new material, of which there is much, at least 10 minutes of new material that has never been posted here.  As for being impatient, I think 2 weeks and now 900 odd views without so much as a "like", it's not being unreasonable to wonder why nobody is saying anything.  I don't think it's a question of the length of time either, when 900 people look at something, the law of averages says that at least 1 or 2 people would have said something.  I also went back and had a look at my original post from October 2018, of the unamended first movement and you were the only person who responded to that post, after it had been open around 4 weeks without any response.   I had posted several bumps to the thread and finally expressed disappointment at the fact that no one had said anything.  It was at that point you responded.  I would understand perfectly if I only posted my own work and never commented on others work, but that is not the case.

I was then and still am very grateful to you for having taken time to respond to me and in no way was I intending to make you feel like you wasted your time.  However, I at no time referred to you or anyone personally and I really don't think that there is any need to get personally insulting.  Your personal opinion may well be that I am an impatient twat, but was there really any need to post that on a public forum?

Hi, Mark, and welcome to GMG!

I'm sorry I have not yet taken the opportunity to listen to your piece; I shall find the time this weekend. I may not be able to comment extensively, but I shall certainly leave some word.

[MarkMcD]

Hello relm1,

Sir, I regret being so civil.  You've touched on a pet peeve.  Best you let this die off and learn how to patiently accept feedback. 

Post deleted after reconsideration of it's content.

[MarkMcD]

Mark,
Many of the "views" are unfortunately bots and crawlers. For example, when Google indexes a page, a computer "views" the page and adds it to search listings. So one of those 900 viewers - actually, probably 2 or 3 of them - are Google computers adding you to search. And there are surely others from Bing, Internet Archive, etc.

Hi Brian,

I hadn't realised that this happens and might well explain some of that large number.  Thanks

[MarkMcD]

Hi, Mark, and welcome to GMG!

I'm sorry I have not yet taken the opportunity to listen to your piece; I shall find the time this weekend. I may not be able to comment extensively, but I shall certainly leave some word.

Hi Karl,

Thanks, but please, only if you want to, the piece is long and although I was disappointed that 900 and odd people had viewed the piece yet not been moved enough by it to say anything, I really don't want to force anyone into anything.  I do understand that long works take much more time out of peoples day, and often we just simply can't be bothered, and that's perfectly fine.

The problem is that this piece at least seems to have some history here as I posted the unamended first movement last year, and that thread got no replies for over a month until Relm1 was kind enough to PM me and we had a nice exchange about it, but in the 1500 odd views that the thread eventually received, Relm1's was the only comment it got.  So when I posted the new thread with the whole 3 movements, 10 months later and saw that it already had 900 odd views but no replies, then I have to think that something must be wrong with it.

Anyway, I would be extremely grateful if you could find time to listen, but I do appreciate that long works do tend to put lots of people off, myself included some times.

Thanks in advance
Mark

[Karl Henning]

Hello relm1,

You weren't civil, you called me an impatient twat.

I think it was simply a typo for "uncivil," and our neighbor meant an apology.

[Cato]

I think it was simply a typo for "uncivil," and our neighbor meant an apology.

Agreed!

Mr. McD!

I also will try to find some time and comment, perhaps tomorrow morning or on Sunday.

If you are 53, you might qualify for free auditing of Music Theory courses at a local university.  Do you have perfect pitch, or something close to it?  That always helps in composition: you can also train your memory to acquire pitch recognition, if you do not have it in the DNA.

Best Wishes!

"Cato"

[Karl Henning]

Hi Brian,

I hadn't realised that this happens and might well explain some of that large number.  Thanks

Yes, I think that automata are responsible for the great majority of that stat. Don't be so discouraged,

[MarkMcD]

Hi Karl and Cato,

Perhaps you are both right, I may well have jumped a tad too easily.

And so, to Relm1, I apologise if your intention really was to also apologise, although telling me to "learn how to patiently accept feedback" rarely goes down well with an apology.  Enough bad blood, as I said, I really was grateful to you for our conversation last year.

Cato, yes I was born June 1966, sadly without true perfect pitch although my teacher always told me that I have a very good ear, and I do hear the music in my head as I write, although I couldn't tell you if you were to play me note, what note you were playing, I could harmonise with it in any manner you might name.

I have often thought of taking composition classes and still would love to but as I live in Valencia, that might be a bit out of your catchment area LOL.

Regards
Mark

[Cato]

Hi Karl and Cato,

Perhaps you are both right, I may well have jumped a tad too easily.

And so, to Relm1, I apologise if your intention really was to also apologise, although telling me to "learn how to patiently accept feedback" rarely goes down well with an apology.  Enough bad blood, as I said, I really was grateful to you for our conversation last year.

Cato, yes I was born June 1966, sadly without true perfect pitch

my teacher always told me that I have a very good ear, and I do hear the music in my head as I write, although I couldn't tell you if you were to play me note, what note you were playing, I could harmonise with it in any manner you might name.

I have often thought of taking composition classes and still would love to but as I live in Valencia, that might be a bit out of your catchment area LOL.

Regards
Mark

Sooo...not Valencia, California?   

Well, perhaps online courses would help!

[Karl Henning]

Hi Karl and Cato,

Perhaps you are both right, I may well have jumped a tad too easily.

And so, to Relm1, I apologise if your intention really was to also apologise, although telling me to "learn how to patiently accept feedback" rarely goes down well with an apology.  Enough bad blood, as I said, I really was grateful to you for our conversation last year.

Cato, yes I was born June 1966, sadly without true perfect pitch although my teacher always told me that I have a very good ear, and I do hear the music in my head as I write, although I couldn't tell you if you were to play me note, what note you were playing, I could harmonise with it in any manner you might name.

I have often thought of taking composition classes and still would love to but as I live in Valencia, that might be a bit out of your catchment area LOL.

Regards
Mark

Let the reboot commence!

[MarkMcD]

Sooo...not Valencia, California?   

Well, perhaps online courses would help!

Hi Cato, no, Valencia Spain. I have looked about for courses, but there's nothing near here.  I'll keep looking though, thanks.

Let the reboot commence!

Thanks Karl

[Cato]

Greetings Mark McD!

Check your messages: I have sent you a preliminary review of your score, but do not want to place it here until you approve.

I think I can say that I am impressed!  0:)

[Karl Henning]

Hi all,

I've not posted anything for quite a while, been busy with other things, but I have kept working on my first fully orchestrated piano concerto, and finally I have it finished.

I did post the first movement here around a year ago, but it's been heavily re-written since then, also the second and third movements are new.

Orchestration is a fairly new experiment for me and I would appreciate any input as to any common mistakes I've made and how to rectify them, other then that, any comments are as always, gratefully received.

The score is a mess, I provide it only for those who like to read and listen at the same time, but it's not my first priority to have an impeccable score since no one is ever likely to have to play it, and as some of you know, it is sometimes necessary to write things that should not appear in a conductors copy, in order for Sibelius to play the piece as required.  However, if there are glaring mistakes (when, there are glaring mistakes) then feel free to point them out.

Thanks in advance to anyone who listens.

Kind regards
Mark

https://soundcloud.com/user-729021187/piano-concerto-no1-in-g-minor

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n8v7qnfojwjqsdd/piano%20concerto%20no.pdf?dl=0

"bump"

[Cato]

I sent my impressions to Mark McD: I have not yet found the time to listen to the MIDI file.

In general I found the effort to be excellent: the composer has created a work in the post-Beethoven vein (1830-1855), with a certain sound reminiscent of e.g. Kalliwoda*, Dobrzynski, or even Schumann. The work grows and grows in interest and intensity as it progresses.  The 9/8 slow movement I found attractive, and not just because of my predilection for 9/8.

I suggested that the composer consider expanding the range of the solo part more (it tends to be in the middle of the keyboard), having the soloist play a third or fourth voice (especially in the triplet opening) to make things contrapuntally more interesting, varying things by using an antiphonal style more often, and re-examining the conclusion.

I hope to hear the MIDI realization soon.



* As an example, I sent this to Mark McD to compare its "sound" to that of his concerto:

https://www.youtube.com/v/OXQ9f2dEL1Q