Richard Wagner: The Greatest Influence on Western Music?

[BachQ]

I have the impression that Brahms' last String Quintet actually started a new path in chamber music which I'm not sure ever got fully explored.

Has this "new path in chamber music" been partially explored?  If so, by whom? 

[Gurn Blanston]

On the topic of composers that taught other composers, it appears that Salieri and Reicha were prolific teachers:

Antonio Salieri taught Beethoven, Schubert, Liszt, Czerny, Hummel, Moscheles, Franz Xavier Mozart, Süssmayr, Meyerbeer and others.


Anton Reicha taught Hector Berlioz, Franz Liszt, Charles Gounod, George Onslow, Ceasar Franck, . . . . .  (Reicha, in turn, studied under Michael Haydn).  Reicha also wrote a treatise Traité de haute composition musicale which was influential as well.

Nice post, d minor (and great pictures, too!). And when you go down the line and see all the composers that THOSE students influenced, it gives you a much better perspective where the real influence in music comes from: not the composers, the teachers and authors!

[BachQ]

Nice post, d minor (and great pictures, too!). And when you go down the line and see all the composers that THOSE students influenced, it gives you a much better perspective where the real influence in music comes from: not the composers, the teachers and authors!

All true.  And, as you mentioned elsewhere, we shouldn't forget Carl Czerny (with his books of etudes for the piano; Liszt would ultimately dedicate his twelve Transcendental Etudes to Czerny) and Ludwig Spohr (with his innovations in violin technique). 

Of course, Czerny was taught piano from Johann Nepomuk Hummel, Antonio Salieri, and Ludwig van Beethoven.  And let's recall that Czerny composed a number of masses, requiems, symphonies, concertos, sonatas and string quartets.    And Spohr composed nine symphonies, culminating in Die Jahreszeiten (not to mention his 36 string quartets, and tons of other stuff ) . . . . . .

Both composers are relatively obscure in light of their massive influences . . . . .

[Gurn Blanston]

All true.  And, as you mentioned elsewhere, we shouldn't forget Carl Czerny (with his books of etudes for the piano; Liszt would ultimately dedicate his twelve Transcendental Etudes to Czerny) and Ludwig Spohr (with his innovations in violin technique). 

Of course, Czerny was taught piano from Johann Nepomuk Hummel, Antonio Salieri, and Ludwig van Beethoven.  And let's recall that Czerny composed a number of masses, requiems, symphonies, concertos, sonatas and string quartets.    And Spohr composed nine symphonies, culminating in Die Jahreszeiten (not to mention his 36 string quartets, and tons of other stuff ) . . . . . .

Both composers are relatively obscure in light of their massive influences . . . . .

Who was a live-in student for 2 years with... Mozart!

[Gurn Blanston]

Not to mention, Clementi was a great teacher too, and one of his students was John Field, inventor of the nocturne, which was in turn made famous by Chopin....

[karlhenning]

It is these connections which I find of interest, and not any tendentious need to pin "The Greatest Influence" on a single (and probably German, 19th-century) composer 

[Gurn Blanston]

It is these connections which I find of interest, and not any tendentious need to pin "The Greatest Influence" on a single (and probably German, 19th-century) composer 

Me too. Fascinating, actually.

[karlhenning]

Mind you, there still remains the possibility that we could objectively determine that Hieronymous Fesca was The Greatest Influence on Western Music!  I think freely!

[jochanaan]

Jo, I gotta disagree.  Here's a list of Nadia Boulanger's pupils (but, hey, it's a good start):

Boulanger is thought to have taught over 600 American composers, in addition to many European composers.

F. John Adams
Josef Alexander
Douglas Allanbrook
Ruth Anderson
George Antheil
Burt Bacharach
Daniel Barenboim
Leslie Bassett
Marion Bauer
Robert Russell Bennett
Arthur Berger
Lennox Berkeley
Leonard Bernstein
Idil Biret
Diane Bish
Easley Blackwood Jr.
Marc Blitzstein
Paul Bowles
Mark Brunswick
Douglas Buys
Elliott Carter
Paul Chihara
John Chowning
Robert Cogan
Joel Cohen
David Conte
Paul Cooper
Aaron Copland
Noah Creshevsky
Clifford Curzon
Ingolf Dahl
David Diamond
Cecil Effinger
Donald Erb
Robert Fertitta
Irving Fine
Ross Lee Finney
Jean Francaix
Noor Inayat Khan
Vilayat Inayat Khan
Jean Françaix
John Eliot Gardiner
George Gershwin
Egberto Gismonti
Peggy Glanville-Hicks
Philip Glass
Adolphus Hailstork
Gerre Hancock
Roy Harris
Flo Hiatt
Peter Hill
Karel Husa
Andrew Imbrie
Quincy Jones
Wojciech Kilar
Ralph Kirkpatrick
Peter Paul Koprowski
Leo Kraft
Gail Kubik
Igor Markevitch
John La Montaine
Phillip Lasser
Robert D. Levin
Gilbert Levine
Dinu Lipatti
Theodore Lucas
Gian Carlo Menotti
Yvar Mikhashoff
Douglas Stuart Moore
Thea Musgrave
Ginette Neveu
Dwight Oltman
Thomas Pasatieri
Ástor Piazzolla
Daniel Pinkham
Walter Piston
James Raphael
Wendy Reid
Willard Rhodes
John Donald Robb
Bernard Rogers
Ned Rorem
Laurence Rosenthal
Lewis Saul
Larry Scripp
Roger Sessions
Harold Shapero
Robert Sherlaw Johnson
Elie Siegmeister
Stanisław Skrowaczewski
William Sloane Coffin
Daniel Stepner
Richard Stoker
Charles Strouse
Howard Swanson
Henryk Szeryng
Louise Talma
Virgil Thomson
George Peter Tingley
Geirr Tveitt
Jane Vignery
George Walker
Robert Washburn
David Ward-Steinman
Richard Westenburg

(from WIKI)

I rest my case.

[BachQ]

Lesson from Gurn: our perceptions of a person's influence rarely coincide with the true, underlying reality of the influence.

In a similar vein, at any given point in time, we may perceive someone as being far more important than he/she ultimately proves to be.  A composer who was a major player in 1800 may prove to be a mere blip on the screen in 1850, and, fifty years later (in 1900), may prove to be a totally obscure nobody. Case in point: back in 1799, Carl Heinrich Graun was considered (by some, at least) one of the Top 4 composers, as can be evidenced from this "Sun of Composers" set forth below:

Sun of Composers in 1799



"Sun of Composers," designed by Augustus Frederick Christopher Kollmann, in an engraving in "Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung," 1799. Published about fifty years after J. S. Bach's death, the illustration shows Bach at the center of the musical universe, from which composers like Handel, Haydn and Mozart radiate.

Specifically, on each side of the triangle he placed the names of

Franz Joseph Haydn (1732 – 1809)
Georg Friedrich Handel (1685 – 1759)
Carl Heinrich Graun (1704 – 1759)



Carl Heinrich Graun

[Lethevich]

Carl Heinrich Graun (1704 – 1759)

Ok, I think this guy wins the prize for most obscure influential composer in history...

[Haffner]

Has this "new path in chamber music" been partially explored?  If so, by whom? 

Please forgive, D, I think I changed my brand of coffee that day. Ever look back at something you wrote and wonder what the @&$# you were thinking?


I wasn't even herbally-influenced on that intractable statement, which makes things worse.


In any event, Brahms' late String Quintet is one of my favorite pieces, ever.

[BachQ]

Ok, I think this guy wins the prize for most obscure influential composer in history...

Speaking of obscure composers, today is the birthday of Gottlieb Muffat (1690).  Happiest of birthdays, Gottlieb! 

[BachQ]

Please forgive, D, I think I changed my brand of coffee that day. Ever look back at something you wrote and wonder what the @&$# you were thinking?

LOL 

In any event, Brahms' late String Quintet is one of my favorite pieces, ever.

Cool.  Do you mean quartet or quintet?

[Haffner]

LOL 

Cool.  Do you mean quartet or quintet?

op. 111. This is the first recording I ever had of it, a good one:

[karlhenning]

Speaking of obscure composers, today is the birthday of Gottlieb Muffat (1690).

He died in an accident while seated on a tuffat.

[BachQ]

I wonder if Mahler was in one of his sardonic moods when he proclaimed:

"There was only Beethoven and Wagner [and] after them, nobody"


               --     Gustav Mahler

[marvinbrown]

I wonder if Mahler was in one of his sardonic moods when he proclaimed:

"There was only Beethoven and Wagner [and] after them, nobody"


               --     Gustav Mahler

   I'd like to think he was in a humbled mood when he said that.  Either way, Mahler was a very big fan of Wagner and influenced by him.  I believe he even conducted a complete Ring Cycle.

  marvin

[mahlertitan]

i think mahler was right.

[Ten thumbs]

i think mahler was right.

Surely Mahler was somebody!
I believe so anyway.