Coronavirus thread

[SimonNZ]

I found the parallel they drew between their wartime commitment and their corona response spurious. I was insulted by their subtle suggestion that the statistics for rest home deaths were less important, and by libertarian nonsense like this: "Treating citizens as children lacking the judgment to make wise decisions is not a sustainable approach. Addressing a prolonged crisis, or one that comes in repeated waves, will require citizens to be active and responsible participants in their security — not mere recipients of government instructions.", which I think is more the author's projection rather than something the Swedes themselves might say, especially as two paragraphs later we get " 93 percent of the population say they are following social-distancing recommendations", ie government instructions.

[T. D.]

Yes, the wartime parallel seems dubious and forced. That's (and the preachy tone) what mainly differentiates the article from the previous Sweden analysis I read (probably Bloomberg and/or BBC, I forget sources), which more directly addressed the high mortality in care homes.

[Karl Henning]

Well, I've been self-isolating since early March, so I'm fine, if a little stir-crazy.  But I feel for anyone who has to choose between paying rent and getting sick.

Truly.

[MusicTurner]

Also, you don't compare Sweden say with Portugal for a different approach for strategy and death tolls, when the neighbouring countries of Norway, Finland and Denmark are right at hand. The sector for the elderly, which should be illustrative of a community spirit, has worked very bad in Sweden, with a lot of fatalities; critical ill, elderly patients have been denied treatment - and schools were often forbidden to tell parents of virus in the classes, whereas they were allowed to tell about ordinary flus etc. And the amount of testing in Sweden has been low too. I agree that it's a bad article with only incomplete and very selective information.

[Florestan]

libertarian nonsense like this: "Treating citizens as children lacking the judgment to make wise decisions is not a sustainable approach. Addressing a prolonged crisis, or one that comes in repeated waves, will require citizens to be active and responsible participants in their security — not mere recipients of government instructions.", which I think is more the author's projection rather than something the Swedes themselves might say, especially as two paragraphs later we get " 93 percent of the population say they are following social-distancing recommendations", ie government instructions.

Actually, what we get in full is this:

Even though the government has only issued behavioral guidelines and individuals don't face fines for non-compliance, 93 percent of the population say they are following social-distancing recommendations.

which aligns perfectly with

Treating citizens as children lacking the judgment to make wise decisions is not a sustainable approach. Addressing a prolonged crisis, or one that comes in repeated waves, will require citizens to be active and responsible participants in their security — not mere recipients of government instructions

The only nonsense here is your qualifing this as "libertarian nonsense" when in fact it's plain common sense.

[SimonNZ]

Common sense? No. That's not self evident. You'll need to convince me of that.

[Florestan]

Common sense? No. That's not self evident. You'll need to convince me of that.

Is it really not self-evident for you that citizens must be active and responsible participants in their security — not mere recipients of government instructions? Do you really need to be convinced of that?

[drogulus]

Is it really not self-evident for you that citizens must be active and responsible participants in their security — not mere recipients of government instructions? Do you really need to be convinced of that?

     An active citizenry chooses an active government. It's the liberty lovers who think citizens who want government to be active are children.

[Florestan]

     An active citizenry chooses an active government. It's the liberty lovers who think citizens who want government to be active are children.

Both statements are factually incorrect.

[JBS]

The most active form of government is totalitarian government.

[drogulus]

     

Both statements are factually incorrect.

     No, they are accurate. Democratic governments are active because they respond to the citizens, and do so better than dictatorships. We know how they work, and most of us live in countries that operate that way, the "least worst" way.

     The "libertator" way is a fantasy. People will want governments to solve problems. They do, and won't stop.

     Dictatorships privilege rule by powerful persons over rule by law and institutions that enforce it. They are "shallow" states.

The most active form of government is totalitarian government.

     Defend your democratic rights. That's how you get the kind of liberty worth having.

[T. D.]

Kimberly Guilfoyle, the girlfriend of Donald Trump's eldest son and a senior fundraising official for the president's re-election, tested positive for Covid-19, the Trump campaign said...

Kimberly Guilfoyle, the girlfriend of President Trump's eldest son and a top fundraising official for the Trump re-election campaign, tested positive for the coronavirus on Friday before a Fourth of July event at Mount Rushmore, the New York Times reported, citing a person familiar with her condition.

Guilfoyle traveled to South Dakota with Donald Trump Jr. to attend a huge fireworks display where the president was set to speak. They didn't travel on Air Force One, according to the person, and she was the only person in the group who tested positive, the paper said.

Those who come in close contact with the president are screened for the virus as protection, the paper said, adding that Guilfoyle is the third person in possible proximity to him known to have contracted the virus. She wasn't experiencing symptoms, and along with Donald Trump Jr., never met up with the president's entourage, the person familiar said. The couple plans to drive back from South Dakota to the East Coast, the person said.

So they'll drive from SD to the East Coast? Presumably staying at hotels, eating in restaurants, etc. along the way. Seriously, wouldn't a quarantine be mandated in this situation?
I'm sure those responsible citizens will take all precautions and inform others of the positive test! 

[Mandryka]

Common sense? No. That's not self evident. You'll need to convince me of that.

In the UK something came up which I believe behavioural scientists call behavioural fatigue. I think it's this: when you ask people to do constraining things, they may initially comply. But after a while they get tired of it and become less biddable, and there may even be a rebound effect where they rebel.

Is this relevant?

[JBS]

     The "libertator" way is a fantasy. People will want governments to solve problems. They do, and won't stop.
.

Which is why it constantly necessary to point out that there are very few problems government can solve.

[Mirror Image]

These sports teams need to just give up and stay put. It was announced a mere 20 minutes ago that half of the Atlanta Braves players have COVID. What is wrong with these people? Is no one taking this seriously? I guess when they wind up on a respirator in a hospital bed is when these people might start using their heads. The sheer ignorance of the American public never ceases to bewilder me.

[T. D.]

Sports Agent Bullish on Baseball Safety (11:10 a.m. NY [7/4/2020])
Sports agent Scott Boras, who represents some of the highest-paid professional baseball players, said he's convinced games can safely return this month without fans, even as Covid-19 cases surge. In an interview, Boras cited the experience of Korea, Japan and Taiwan, where games were played without hospitalizations.

Four players have decided to sit out the year and on Friday the game's biggest star, Mike Trout, said he's concerned about playing with his wife pregnant. Thirty-one players and seven staff members tested positive for Covid-19, according to an announcement from Major League Baseball and the players union. That was 1.2% of the total 3,185 samples, a rate lower than 5% of players reported by the National Basketball Association in its initial round of testing.

Uh, Scott... [South] Korea*, Japan and Taiwan happen to be more advanced societies with non-backward populaces.

*North Korea reports no coronavirus cases, but they don't have professional baseball...

[Florestan]

     
     No, they are accurate.

They are both demonstrably false.

Exhibit A: True case in Romania.

A small town, social-democratic mayor. For years and years citizens living on street X petitioned the mayor with a request for repairing the asphalt of their street, to no avail whatsoever. Eventually, they assembled as active citizenry, put their money together, hired a contractor and repaired the street on their own  money. Net result: the then social-democratic active government sued them for doing illegal works on public roads.

Exhibit B. True case in Romania

No "liberty lover" I know --- which in Romanian context actually means non-socialist --- thinks or says or prints that people who vote socialists are children. Uneducated, ignorant, misinformed, duped and taken advantage of, yes (sounds familiar?) --- children, never.

You see, the USA is not the whole world, and an American's trash might be a Romanian's treasure.

[André]

In the UK something came up which I believe behavioural scientists call behavioural fatigue. I think it's this: when you ask people to do constraining things, they may initially comply. But after a while they get tired of it and become less biddable, and there may even be a rebound effect where they rebel.

Is this relevant?

I think so. We see that behavioural fatigue here, and most probably all over the place where confinement has taken place. The big talk from the health authorities is to beware of any relâchement (slackening, loosening).

[vandermolen]

I had a haircut today! 

[Florestan]

People will want governments to solve problems. They do, and won't stop.

Oh I agree --- people want governments to solve problems. Only problem is, (modern & democratic) governments solve problems at a slower rate than they create them.