Coronavirus thread

[prémont]

Sure, like white middle aged Republicans.

Do you think of anyone in particular? 

[Florestan]

There's something much more interesting than that going on. Somehow, I don't understand how exactly, the left have adopted a rigid authoritarian stance in this pandemic, they talk down or even ignore the costs of NPIs and stress the benefits, maybe to the point of exaggerating the benefits. So people's positions have become all mixed up with where they see themselves on the political spectrum.

Don't know what a NPI is but I don't think the left is more authoritarian than the right with respect to the Covid-19 pandemic, at least in the EU: Austria's conservative government is the most extreme on the issue, seconded closely by the Greek conservative government. On the other hand, Sweden's left government has had a more relaxed and rational approach all along.

If you ask me, left and right are increasingly obsolete and irrelevant terms. The current CDU in Germany, thanks to Frau Merkel, has shifted so far to the left as to make Helmut Kohl look like a far-right extremist; conversely, many left governments have adopted measures which judged by the left standards of only a few decades ago are decidedly authoritarian.

There's another thing too.  Some people are scared and they want to see actions like vaccine mandates in the face of what they see as a personal threat, because, rightly or wrongly, the feel they would be safer.

That's exactly what I said in a previous post --- and the media bears a heavy responsibility in this respect.

[Florestan]

You are probably completely right, but this is the conditions of life, and we have to react to this, if we want to survive.

Do you imply that any and all people now alive or born in the future, at least in the Western world, who will not get jabbed 3 times a year for the remainder of their lifetime run the risk of dying of Covid-19 in whatever variant it presents itself at any given time?

You are of course entitled to your opinion, as well as I am to mine.

Wholeheartedly agreed and I think that by agreeing to disagree we can leave it at that.

Anyway, thank you for a civil and polite discussion. I really appreciate it and respect you. Stay safe at any time, you and all your loved ones!

[prémont]

The datum which is most interesting is not the number of people in hospital with covid, it's the number of people who are admitted to hospital because of covid. Clearly as omicron rages, more people will be admitted with the disease even though the disease isn't the reason for admission.

But the UK, which has been quite open in this pandemic, has declined to publish this data. I not think the most reliable indicator of the disease's impact is the number of people in intensive care,

That's for sure. Even in my country we can't get that information. Never-the-less these numbers are raising in my country but not as fast as the number of infections. However there is a latency of  maybe two weeks before the number of admissions is affected. And we have not yet seen a large part of the elderly and vulnerable infected with the omikron, but with groving number of infected people this will happen relatively soon even with the actual partial restrictions. With alfa and delta almost all admissions were of people 50+ and most of them 70+. As I wrote above preliminary data from Denmark indicate that there is no obvious clinical difference between infections with Omikron, Alfa or Delta variants.

[Karl Henning]

The reduction of infection in vaccinated individuals is a matter of record. Which says what about the person who "disagrees" with it?

[prémont]

Do you imply that any and all people now alive or born in the future, at least in the Western world, who will not get jabbed 3 times a year for the remainder of their lifetime run the risk of dying of Covid-19 in whatever variant it presents itself at any given time?

In theory : More or less, but no one knows. Hopefully it won't go that far. More efficient vaccines may be invented and the wild animal policy of certain Asiatic countrys may change.

Wholeheartedly agreed and I think that by agreeing to disagree we can leave it at that.

Anyway, thank you for a civil and polite discussion. I really appreciate it and respect you. Stay safe at any time, you and all your loved ones!

Thanks, I wish you the same.
BTW I'm a polite person by nature  0:) 0:)

[prémont]

The reduction of infection in vaccinated individuals is a matter of record. Which says what about the person who "disagrees" with it?

In this age of misinformation and fake news it's easy to become missguided.

[Florestan]

The datum which is most interesting is not the number of people in hospital with covid, it's [the] number of people who are admitted to hospital because of covid.

Good luck with getting that data.

You might as well ask how many people died with covid vs how many people died because of covid.

Someone's got terminal cancer, gets Covid and dies within two weeks after testing positive. Ergo, he died of Covid, never mind that he'd have died anyway within a few weeks.

Someone has a severe heart attack, gets admitted to hospital, tests positive for Covid and dies after a few hours. Ergo, he died of Covid, never mind that he'd have died anyway within hours.

Cases like that are well documented at personal level but you'll never hear of them in the mainstream media.

[Florestan]

In this age of misinformation and fake news it's easy to become misguided.

This is true --- but misinformation and fake news has been just as much a feature of mainstream media as of social media since quite a long time. Do you remember the times when Saddam Hussein had WMDs, or when the Serbs set up concentration camps, or when the Taliban were freedom fighters against Russian tyranny, or when the Arab Spring was ushering in an era of democracy and freedom? I most certainly do.

[Mandryka]

Good luck with getting that data.

You might as well ask how many people died with covid vs how many people died because of covid.

Someone's got terminal cancer, gets Covid and dies within two weeks after testing positive. Ergo, he died of Covid, never mind that he'd have died anyway within a few weeks.

Someone has a severe heart attack, gets admitted to hospital, tests positive for Covid and dies after a few hours. Ergo, he died of Covid, never mind that he'd have died anyway within hours.


I once saw some data about paediatric admissions with delta which suggested that only 15% were incidental.

Cases like that are well documented at personal level but you'll never hear of them in the mainstream media.

One thing we do know is that 40% of the omicron cases in hospital in London are incidental covid admissions, they were admitted because of some other problem and tested automatically.

Clearly with a virus as virulent as omicron, this datum is crucial - without it you really have no idea what's going on.

[prémont]

This is true --- but misinformation and fake news has been just as much a feature of mainstream media as of social media since quite a long time. Do you remember the times when Saddam Hussein had WMDs, or when the Serbs set up concentration camps, or when the Taliban were freedom fighters against Russian tyranny, or when the Arab Spring was ushering in an era of democracy and freedom? I most certainly do.

Yes, you are right. To day it's increasing difficult to navigate in the deluge of news because some of it is true and some of it is not. Often it's about not trusting the politicians, unfortunately.

[Florestan]

One thing we do know is that 40% of the omicron cases in hospital in London are incidental covid admissions, they were admitted because of some other problem and tested automatically.

Clearly with a virus as virulent as omicron, this datum is crucial - without it you really have no idea what's going on.

Of course, but collecting such data and processing it takes time.

Are you aware of any confirmed death because of omicron in the UK? I mean, doctors in hospital X confirm that person Y without any other problems died of omicron in their location.

[Karl Henning]

In this age of misinformation and fake news it's easy to become misguided.

And in this age, there is no lack of the misguided claiming to be experts.

[prémont]

One thing we do know is that 40% of the omicron cases in hospital in London are incidental covid admissions, they were admitted because of some other problem and tested automatically.

Still this doesn't hide the fact, that a large - and at the moment growing - number of patients are admitted because of omikron. But I agree, that the number of patients in intensive care with the typical clinical covid picture because of omikron is more interesting.

[Todd]

Sure, like white middle aged Republicans.

No, actually I refer to racial minorities.  Half of U.S. States Have Big Racial Vaccine Gaps Heading Into Omicron

[prémont]

Are you aware of any confirmed death because of omicron in the UK? I mean, doctors in hospital X confirm that person Y without any other problems died of omicron in their location.

This would be few, because most patients dying of covid have other diseases which aggravate the covid course eg. COLD.

[Florestan]

Yes, you are right. To day it's increasing difficult to navigate in the deluge of news because some of it is true and some of it is not. Often it's about not trusting the politicians, unfortunately.

I am Romanian. I would never ever trust a politician even if they said "It's a fine day today" unless confirmed by three other independent, unpolitical sources. 

This is not to say that alternative or social media is more trustful.

All I'm saying is that any sane and rational person should judge any matter whatsoever according to their own lights and available information, reach their own conclusion and act accordingly. There's going to be disagreement, naturally.

[Florestan]

most patients dying of covid have other diseases which aggravate the covid course

So bottom line, do they die of Covid or with Covid?

It might seem as a trivial matter but it actually makes all the difference in the world.

[Que]

So bottom line, do they die of Covid or with Covid?

It might seem as a trivial matter but it actually makes all the difference in the world.

If someone is in ill health, how do you make the distinction?
I think you can't.... in a lot of cases it will be the sum total of different conditions that pushes someone over the edge.

[prémont]

So bottom line, do they die of Covid or with Covid?

It might seem as a trivial matter but it actually makes all the difference in the world.

What Que wrote. One can't make a distinction like that.