Coronavirus thread

[Florestan]

I can say from personal experience that being at a match at the Australian Open when a Serb is playing can be pretty annoying... this is not unique, in that there are many ethnic groups in Australia who will come out and support a player from the relevant part of the world. But the Serbs definitely rank among the noisier... and my view is probably heavily coloured by the fantastic 5-set match that was nearly ruined by the 2 guys behind me who were paying almost no attention to the tennis, beyond cheering when it was time for Serbs to cheered, and who spent several hours rambling endlessly about all sorts of inane stuff (including which girls in the crowd they wanted) until I finally turned around and told them to shut the fuck up.

They were obviously much less patriotic than they considered themselves; had they truly been Serbian patriots, they'd have talked to each other in Serbian and you wouldn't have been able to understand anything at all. 

Anyway, if Djokovic does end up playing this year, I suspect the atmosphere at his matches will be insufferable. He's the kind of player that will probably just be spurred on by that.

I wonder what will happen if he is allowed to play and wins the tournament... 

[Florestan]

I'm even firmer now in the view that this wasn't Djokovic's fault personally. He relied on what he was told by Tennis Australia and the Victorian Government.

Actually, who granted him the visa? The Victorian government or the federal government?

[Madiel]

They were obviously much less patriotic than they considered themselves; had they truly been Serbian patriots, they'd have talked to each other in Serbian and you wouldn't have been able to understand anything at all. 

Ha. I'm not sure many of their generation speak the language well, if at all. This doesn't diminish the community sense, especially when it comes to sport. Multiculturalism is a part of the Australian landscape, and the Australian Open is perhaps the best single sporting event for bringing it out.

The Dutch and the Swedes tend to be a lot funnier.

I wonder what will happen if he is allowed to play and wins the tournament... 

Given how darn good he is at winning it, we would probably find out.

[Madiel]

Actually, who granted him the visa? The Victorian government or the federal government?

Federal.

I think it's the Victorian government that got to say he wouldn't need to quarantine. That's a whole other weird situation which we don't need to get into. But visas is most definitely a federal thing.

If I understand the timeline, though, he got the visa well before the medical exemption and before he contracted Covid in December. So the visa process simply must have been a thing that said "so far it looks like everything is in order".

The bits of transcript that I've seen show Djokovic repeatedly mentioning Tennis Australia and the Victorian government. Not the federal. So to me part of the problem is that his communication was all with the people who had control of the tennis tournament, not the people who had control of the border. The visa process was like a website or something, not full communication.

[MusicTurner]

(...)
The Dutch and the Swedes tend to be a lot funnier.
(...)

My impression is that Serbian funniness has been deposited temporarily, on some location hidden from the enemies;
I might be wrong, though. It's been rough times there. Serbian and Croatian sport fans can tend to be rather tough.

[MusicTurner]

I feel sorry for him. I wouldn't know what to do with all that money.

A lot from the usual check list, it seems - a collection of luxury cars, a collection of luxury houses abroad, a yacht, etc.

Some charity donations and running a Serbian cafe chain named after himself as well.

[Florestan]

Federal.

I think it's the Victorian government that got to say he wouldn't need to quarantine. That's a whole other weird situation which we don't need to get into. But visas is most definitely a federal thing.

If I understand the timeline, though, he got the visa well before the medical exemption and before he contracted Covid in December. So the visa process simply must have been a thing that said "so far it looks like everything is in order".

Even at that time it was well-known that he wasn't vaccinated. If ''no jab, no entry" was the rule admitting of no exceptions, then how come he did get the visa in the first place? Failure to produce vaccination proof should have resulted in a flat denial, yet it didn't. It's all so puzzling.

[Florestan]

My impression is that Serbian funniness has been deposited temporarily, on some location hidden from the enemies;

Considering their history, including fairly recent one, it's no surprise they are not among the funniest people. Also no surprise they tend to be extremely vocal about, and fond of, their national icons. I can't fault them on either issue.

[Florestan]

A lot from the usual check list, it seems - a collection of luxury cars, a collection of luxury houses abroad, a yacht, etc.

Some charity donations

Well, that's pretty commo stuff for top tennis players, most (all?) of whom are extremely rich. Djokovic is hardly an exceptional or exceptionable case.

[Madiel]

Even at that time it was well-known that he wasn't vaccinated. If ''no jab, no entry" was the rule admitting of no exceptions, then how come he did get the visa in the first place? Failure to produce vaccination proof should have resulted in a flat denial, yet it didn't. It's all so puzzling.

There's always been exceptions. There still are. It's accepted that some people cannot get vaccinated for sound medical reasons. For example, there is a local football player who nearly died from a reaction to a vaccination when he was younger, and said that he therefore would not be getting a covid vaccination. I think this was widely recognised as a perfectly good reason to say no.

But the federal government specifically said to Tennis Australia that "I've been infected in the last 6 months" was not one of the exceptions they would accept.

There are hints that he had paperwork from TA saying "he has a medical exemption". It's only when you interrogate the basis for granting that medical exemption that you discover the problem.

As to it being well-known that he wasn't vaccinated... Djokovic constantly plays coy about whether he's vaccinated or not. Though I agree that surely means he isn't vaccinated. If he was vaccinated but refused to reveal that to the government, then I have zero sympathy for him at all.

[Florestan]

the federal government specifically said to Tennis Australia that "I've been infected in the last 6 months" was not one of the exceptions they would accept.

And yet the same federal government granted a visa to Djokovic who claimed medical exemption on exactly that ground. Or as you say, quite possibly granted him a visa before he even claimed that, thus having no ground at all for an exemption.

[Madiel]

And yet the same federal government granted a visa to Djokovic who claimed medical exemption on exactly that ground. Or as you say, quite possibly granted him a visa before he even claimed that, thus having no ground at all for an exemption.

Yes. Because a visa is not the end of the process. Which he clearly knew given that he applied for an exemption afterwards!

A visa simply isn't a guarantee of entry into a country. It's one of the requirements. There are checks before grant, but that doesn't mean there can't be any requirements later. In fact I'm quite certain that the relevant Australian laws on visas have a section for conditions at the time of application and a separate section for conditions at the time of arriving in Australia, and while the conditions might overlap they aren't identical. And I'm talking completely separately from the Covid issue, this is just generally.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

A lot from the usual check list, it seems - a collection of luxury cars, a collection of luxury houses abroad, a yacht, etc.

Some charity donations and running a Serbian cafe chain named after himself as well.

MT, Karl and others,

From what I understand, he's done a lot to help kids/education in Serbia (as well as donating to other causes....including donating money to Australia after those horrible wildfires).  https://novakdjokovicfoundation.org

I recall hearing over the years about his rough upbringing (Not 100% positive, but believe that when he was young, that he and his family were homeless at one point?).  And learning how to play tennis at the bottom of an (obviously empty) swimming pool wouldn't have been easy either.  Can't imagine what it would have been like either to have grown up during the breakup of Yugoslavia and the subsequent turmoil, fighting and genocide.

Madiel,

Yes, I know about those "warm-up" tournaments to the open; I've been watching some of the matches (time difference is rough if I want to watch any of them live).  And envious that you've been to the Australian Open before!  Perhaps in the tennis thread, you could share some of your experiences there?

I sometimes read Ben Rothenberg's Twitter postings (He apparently was also on CNN last night--which I missed).  Read the news this morning re the hearing results.  One of the things that BR brought up which I read yesterday was that (and he posted a photo) the deadline to apply for a ME was December 10th.  Apparently Novak (at some point) stated that he had tested positive (or had his test done on that day) on December 16th.  He also appeared at some events a day or two after that and maskless.  I'd like to think that if he knew that he was positive at the time of events that he wouldn't have gone.  I hope that that was the case.  https://twitter.com/BenRothenberg/status/1479731802302410755

He's an amazing tennis player.  I have huge respect for him in that regard and others....as a human being.  No, I don't agree with his vax stance and he shouldn't be given (or have been if true) any special line-hopping/entrance allowances especially over other Australians trying to return home...or anyone else trying to enter Australia.

Will be interesting to see whether or not the federal government decides to push for him to leave; at this point, I'd be quite surprised if they did.

PD

p.s.  And thank you for your legal comments!  It helps to try and make sense of this confusing mess!     Just read your latest one Madiel.

[Florestan]

Yes. Because a visa is not the end of the process. Which he clearly knew given that he applied for an exemption afterwards!

A visa simply isn't a guarantee of entry into a country. It's one of the requirements. There are checks before grant, but that doesn't mean there can't be any requirements later. In fact I'm quite certain that the relevant Australian laws on visas have a section for conditions at the time of application and a separate section for conditions at the time of arriving in Australia, and while the conditions might overlap they aren't identical.

I am aware of all that and it's common sense.

Actually, I think there might be a way to get to the origin of the whole mess.

I don't think the visa application and granting process is completely automated. I mean, yes you upload the application form and the relevant documentation online but I believe that at some point a federal civil servant reviews them and decides to grant the visa or to deny it; moreover, there must be a record kept about who and when granted or denied the visa, that also files all documents pertaining to that particular application. If that is indeed the case, then the only one who can clear up the mess is that civil servant who granted Djokovic the visa. Now, there are only two cases possible: either the documentation was fully compliant with the federal law at the time of granting, or it was not. If the former, then the federal government should indicate what changes in the federal law took place between the granting of the visa and Djokovic's entrance in Australia that rendered the visa invalid; if the latter, then the responsibility for the whole kerfuffle falls entirely on the civil servant.

My two cents as a non-lawyer, non-legal expert. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

[Spotted Horses]

What amazes me is that the question of whether a tennis player can flout vaccination rules and enter a country anyway just because his celebrity status is high enough and the tennis tournament is apparently more important than health policy.

And my exposure to the immigration/border control system leads me to believe that individuals, including the person reviewing your passport and travel documents as you enter the country, have wide latitude to interpret rules as they see fit. I remember reading that performances of Taneyev quartets by the Carpe Diem quartet at a music festival in the UK had to be canceled because one of the quartet members had been denied entry at the border. The work permit was denied because the border control agent decided that there were lots of string quartets in the UK who could perform Taneyev and there was no need for foreign labor. There was no international incident in that case.

[Karl Henning]

What amazes me is that the question of whether a tennis player can flout vaccination rules and enter a country anyway just because his celebrity status is high enough and the tennis tournament is apparently more important than health policy.

Like paying taxes: Rules are for little people.

[Florestan]

And my exposure to the immigration/border control system leads me to believe that individuals, including the person reviewing your passport and travel documents as you enter the country, have wide latitude to interpret rules as they see fit. I remember reading that performances of Taneyev quartets by the Carpe Diem quartet at a music festival in the UK had to be canceled because one of the quartet members had been denied entry at the border. The work permit was denied because the border control agent decided that there were lots of string quartets in the UK who could perform Taneyev and there was no need for foreign labor. There was no international incident in that case.

If the story is true (and I don't question the truth of your having read about it, mind you, just the accuracy of the report) then it's a far graver, revolting and absolutely unacceptable incident than the Djokovic kerfuffle.

[Florestan]

the question of whether a tennis player can flout vaccination rules and enter a country anyway just because his celebrity status is high enough and the tennis tournament is apparently more important than health policy.

Madiel is an Australian lawyer and he explained in detail in a few posts above that actually Djokovic might be at no personal fault, just caught in the middle of a web of miscommunications, misunderstandings and legal inconsistencies between Tennis Australia, the Victorian government and the federal government.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Here is an abridged version of the transcripts from when Djokovic was interviewed when he arrived in Australia.  From what I read of it, it wasn't handled well by the border authority.  How was Novak supposed to get ahold of anyone at 4 a.m. (like Tennis Australia or anyone at the Victorian government or his agent?) to see if he could get what they wanted?  I know that they ended up (or were supposed to) extending the deadline to get ahold of further information/documentation to 8:30 a.m.  Curious as to what Madiel makes of this.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/i-don-t-understand-what-djokovic-told-border-force-at-the-airport-20220110-p59n80.html#comments

PD

[Madiel]

I don't think the visa application and granting process is completely automated.

Whereas I wouldn't rule it out.

I don't know. I mean, I've never needed an Australian visa.

But if there's one thing I've felt over many years working for government, it's that not enough resources are put into actually administering laws. Governments of all persuasions seem unaware that administering laws well costs money.

And so departments are constantly looking for ways to administer laws at lower cost. Often this involves making other people, the users of laws, do all the work that the department can't actually afford to do.

I'm not saying what happened in this particular case. I don't know. But the idea of a system where the visa applicant pushes all the buttons and the system spits out an okay that is coded as "well, so far we assume it's okay and 99% of people are okay but when someone actually turns their mind to this individual case things might be different"... I'm not prepared to rule that scenario out.