USA Politics (redux)

[71 dB]

This is really over the top...I am not American, I admire many things of that country, I think there's also many things that can be improved there, but I take strong exception to some bloke in Finland (who barely knows the US, unless it's from propaganda on YouTube) insulting the place day in and day out.

Enough is enough....

I am happy to discuss about the propaganda on Youtube.

The word "propaganda" has negative connotation. Therefore, using the word only makes sense when it is used to describe negative things, for example anti-vaxxer propaganda. If we start using the word "propaganda" with any things including positive things (e.g. animal rights propaganda), the connotation changes and the world kind of loses its meaning. Why use it, when it can mean negative or positive things?

I am sorry, but I find it intellectually lazy to just discredit Youtubers for being Youtubers AS IF THE PLATFORM dictated how much you know. MSM has had monopoly for decades, but they are biased toward corporations and the establishment*. Thanks to Youtubers, ALTERNATIVE voices biased in other ways have a platform. People should listen to everything and USE THEIR FUCKING HEAD to dictate who makes sense and who doesn't!

To dismiss Youtubers as useless propaganda you have to know what they say, otherwise you are simply assuming things (full of shit). If you know what they say you can make your own claims about why their propaganda is useless. Make a damn argument!

* If you are too dumb to know why this is: 1) they want "access" to politicials so they are overtly nice to the establisment. 2) Corporations run adds. If you start talking about M4A too positively  Big Pharma gets angry and stops buying medicine add (in Finland medicine adds are illegal, because Finland is a sane country and medical adds don't make sense: Doctors tell people what medicine to use and when. In the US medical adds are shown to funnel money to the MSM to buy them to be critical toward M4A).

[T. D.]

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-03-27/georgia-voting-law-shows-consequences-of-trump-s-false-claims

If elections have consequences, as the cliché goes, then so do lies. Both kinds of consequences were on display this week in Georgia.

On the same night that former President Donald Trump was on Fox News minimizing the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol, Georgia Governor Brian Kemp signed a law restricting voting rights in the state. Think of it as the legislative response to Trump's false claim that rampant voter fraud denied him a victory in Georgia.

With his comments — among other observations, he said that the Jan. 6 mob was "zero threat" to the police or Congress —  Trump was attempting to create an alibi for those who came to Washington because he told them the election was stolen and marched on the Capitol in his name. The work of federal law enforcement, building the case against the rioters, will now be fed into the Trumpist grievance grinder. How long before the attack itself is deemed yet another "hoax"?

No matter that one police officer died following his violent encounter with protesters, or that two others took their own lives shortly thereafter, or that countless others were injured, or that more than 400 people have been charged in connection to, yes, an insurrection designed to prevent the certification of Joe Biden's victory. Who are you going to believe — Trump or your own lying eyes?

Georgia's new election law, meanwhile, represents a sad 180-degree turn by Kemp — the same man who, despite enormous pressure from Trump, stood his ground on the integrity of Georgia's November election. That brief bravery placed a bullseye on Kemp's back. Not only has Trump targeted him for defeat next year, the former president has already endorsed a challenger to Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, who also stood up to Trump's (possibly illegal) intimidation tactics.

Kemp signed a law that removes much of the election oversight from local counties and the secretary of state — giving much authority to the state legislature. If there is a replay of 2020's close election in 2024, the legislature could very well disenfranchise Georgia voters, who may well cast a majority of their ballots to the Democrats. The test run will be in 2022, when not only is Kemp up for re-election but so is new Democratic U.S. Senator Raphael Warnock.

The legislation also includes language limiting the number of drop boxes for absentee ballots. They now can be placed only at early-voting locations and be open only during business hours. So the drop box where Kemp himself voted in November is no more.

True, Georgia Republicans were shamed into removing a suggested ban on Sunday voting efforts, which was apparently deemed too much of a blatant assault on Black "Souls to the Polls" voter-turnout efforts. They did, however, manage to make it a crime to give food or water to someone waiting to vote — an equally overt attempt at Black voter suppression.

There are fewer polling locations in predominantly Black neighborhoods in Georgia than in White ones. As a result, lines are consistently longer in Black neighborhoods. That was true in Atlanta in the primary and the general election. Add in language that reduces the number of early voting days and the net result is clear: a system designed to wear down Black voters.

If some Good Samaritan gives bottled water away, she has now committed a crime. While self-service water stations can be set up, how many will be needed if the line stretches around the corner? Think a voter will come to a polling place sufficiently well-hydrated for an endurance test? More likely, especially if it's hot, a hungry or tired voter will give up and head home.

For Georgia Republicans, that counts as mission accomplished. Or rather, vote suppressed.

So far, Trump's false claim about a stolen election has produced an insurrection at the U.S. Capitol and inspired an attempt at vote suppression in Georgia. (And similar legislation is being introduced in other states.) Republicans, with "evidence" largely arising from Trump's conspiratorial mind, say that the electoral system can no longer be trusted. Voters need to ask themselves whether, when it comes to protecting their rights, the Republican Party can be trusted.

[71 dB]

+1

71s language would be called racism if any other country were the subject.

And now he's learned that people dislike the use of the word"sucks" he puts it in every post. The way a troll would. The way he did when he was told any other term was insulting.

That is an absurb accusation! A lot of the things I am complaining about is related to racism! How is it racism if I point out black communities in Texas have been forgotten in the middle to water crisis? What the fuck is wrong with you Simon? Are you out of your mind? I won't tolerate that kind of accusations! Shut up already is you don't have anything better to say. It is your own fault if you are so ignorant you don't know about the problems in the US.

[ritter]

+1

71s language would be called racism if any other country were the subject.

And now he's learned that people dislike the use of the word"sucks" he puts it in every post. The way a troll would. The way he did when he was told any other term was insulting.

Simon, I suggest you do not lower yourself to the level of this poster. He's perfectly entitled to his opinions, but not to hurl insults left, right and centre (at countries, whole groups of people, and individuals).

[SimonNZ]

Simon, I suggest you do not lower yourself to the level of this poster. He's perfectly entitled to his opinions, but not to hurl insults left, right and centre (at countries, whole groups of people, and to individuals).

I used to wonder if I was just swinging at the low-hanging fruit when I would keep responding to posters like this.

What I've learned is that it's the "doubling-down" mentality that I want to understand. Why will someone keep making the same assertions when they've been convincingly disproved or contradicted by a variety of posters? What lynchpin concepts and keywords are employed? And what kind of arguments does it take to finally get through? The answers have real-world implications.  Its why I keep responding to Todd, even knowing its mostly fruitless.

[arpeggio]

I have lost interest in this discussion and I have not participated in awhile.

One of the reasons is that I got tired of expressing my concerns over an issue, a Trumpster would accused me of being paranoid and then it turns out to be true.

An example is when a few months ago I stated my concern over the United States Postal Service.  A Trump ally accused me of imagining the decline.  Then the Trump appointed Postmaster General testified to Congress.

[DavidW]

I haven't seen any Trump allies on this thread since I joined in January.  How do you know that they are a Trumpster?  Did they tell you?  Or did you just decide they were?

[arpeggio]

I haven't seen any Trump allies on this thread since I joined in January.  How do you know that they are a Trumpster?  Did they tell you?  Or did you just decide they were?

These are the types of questions that I find frustrating.

I am not going to waste my time going through a few thousand post to provide you with a list of the Trump supporters who have participated in this thread.

[DavidW]

These are the types of questions that I find frustrating.

I am not going to waste my time going through a few thousand post to provide you with a list of the Trump supporters who have participated in this thread.

No my point is that you're jumping to conclusions and making assumptions just because they disagree with you. 

I think that if you were to come up with your list of alleged Trump supporters you would most likely find those people pissed off at you for making assumptions about their political identity.

BTW in case you want to add me to the list, I'm not a Trump supporter.  I'm not even conservative.

[SimonNZ]

O the original, now locked, version of this thread - Sound The Trumpets - there were a number of very vocal Trump cheerleaders. Some who liked tax cuts or whatever, a few others who sounded like typical troll-farm trolls. The "tax cut and judges justifies everything else" crowd got quieter with each passing year.

[drogulus]

     I'm not even conservative, too.

     I am somewhat perturbed by the notions behind the Biden tax scheme. Usually existing taxes mop up demand-side inflation, and when more spending is done more tax comes back with no need to fiddle with rates or offsets. So when some pol or pundit pulls the "howyougonna payforit?" trick my response is along the lines of "you are paying, you always pay, now get outta here!".

[71 dB]

O the original, now locked, version of this thread - Sound The Trumpets - there were a number of very vocal Trump cheerleaders. Some who liked tax cuts or whatever, a few others who sounded like typical troll-farm trolls. The "tax cut and judges justifies everything else" crowd got quieter with each passing year.

Maybe the Trump supporters realized they aren't really rich enough to benefit from the tax cuts? Maybe they noticed how their healthcare premiums went up (because of Trump's attempts to sabotage/repeal Obamacare) more than the tax cuts saved them money? Maybe they just realized they were bamboozled by a fake populist conman who run for president to enrich himself?

     I'm not even conservative, too.

     I am somewhat perturbed by the notions behind the Biden tax scheme. Usually existing taxes mop up demand-side inflation, and when more spending is done more tax comes back with no need to fiddle with rates or offsets. So when some pol or pundit pulls the "howyougonna payforit?" trick my response is along the lines of "you are paying, you always pay, now get outta here!".

Americans don't really pay less taxes than for example people in Nordic countries when you take into account that in the US a lot of the taxes are private (such as healthcare premiums - it is a tax because Obamacare mandates it) so when you add normal and private taxes you end up high taxes. In the US the rich and corporations pay very little taxes, in same cases zero (e.g. Amazon) taxes so regular people need to pay more.

[T. D.]

https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-politics-legislature-local-elections-bills-73b331234cec8c966bb2308f6ed1696e

Partisan takeovers of election boards. Threats to fine county election officials and overturn results. Even bans on giving water to voters while they stand in line.

In addition to their nationwide efforts to limit access to the ballot, Republican lawmakers in some states are moving to gain greater control over the local mechanics of elections, from voter registration all the way to certifying results.

The bills, which have already become law in Georgia and Iowa, resurrect elements of former President Donald Trump's extraordinary campaign to subvert his loss, when his backers openly floated the notion of having legislatures override the will of the voters and launched legal challenges against measures that made it easier to vote during the coronavirus pandemic.

"It's an overreach of power," said Aunna Dennis, executive director of the Georgia chapter of the voting advocacy group Common Cause. "They're definitely trying to do an upheaval of our election system."

In a step widely interpreted as a way to check Georgia's Democratic strongholds, Republican Gov. Brian Kemp signed a bill Thursday to give the GOP-dominated Legislature greater influence over a state board that regulates elections and empowers it to remove local election officials deemed to be underperforming.

Other states are moving in similar directions.

In Iowa, after left-leaning counties sent voters absentee ballot applications in 2020, a recently signed law would bar election workers from sending the forms out unless requested and threatens to fine officials for violating rules. A South Carolina proposal would give lawmakers new oversight of the members appointed to the currently independent State Election Commission. In Arizona, a Republican proposal that has since died would have allowed the Legislature to overturn election results and appoint its own Electoral College representatives.

The Brennan Center for Justice, a public policy group that supports expanded voter access, tallied more than 250 restrictive proposals in the states, many of them intended to roll back voting methods that were expanded because of the pandemic. That includes early and mail voting options, both of which were popular among voters who sought to avoid virus transmission at crowded polling places.

[arpeggio]

No my point is that you're jumping to conclusions and making assumptions just because they disagree with you. 

I think that if you were to come up with your list of alleged Trump supporters you would most likely find those people pissed off at you for making assumptions about their political identity.

BTW in case you want to add me to the list, I'm not a Trump supporter.  I'm not even conservative.

One of the other reasons I hate political discussions is when I am accused of being something I am not.

Do you really believe that I am this petty?

It bothers me whenever a person of intelligence makes bogus assumptions about me.

I give up 

[greg]

There are people who are quick to judge someone else as a "Trump supporter" if they dare remotely question any accusation against him. Some here, but super common online in general.

Personally haven't seen that type of behavior from arpeggio, though.

[arpeggio]

There are people who are quick to judge someone else as a "Trump supporter" if they dare remotely question any accusation against him. Some here, but super common online in general.

Personally haven't seen that type of behavior from arpeggio, though.

Thanks 

[Herman]

I think a bunch of classical music fans are not statistically relevant and also too much into the thinking of MSM maybe?
Reaching to people means minimum wage workers for example.

So, you're posting about MfA on GMG just to "educate" American minimum wage earners?

Isn't that Quixotic squared?

[71 dB]

So, you're posting about MfA on GMG just to "educate" American minimum wage earners?

Isn't that Quixotic squared?

No. I am not that kind of educator obviously. I am sharing my opinions.

Why can't you just let me be what I am?

[Herman]

I haven't seen any Trump allies on this thread since I joined in January.  How do you know that they are a Trumpster?  Did they tell you?  Or did you just decide they were?

There were at least four Trumpsters in the Diner, one of whom pretended to be on the fence, while being solidly in the Trump camp as soon as his fingers touched the keys.

[Herman]

This is really over the top...I am not American, I admire many things of that country, I think there's also many things that can be improved there, but I take strong exception to some bloke in Finland (who barely knows the US, unless it's from propaganda on YouTube) insulting the place day in and day out.

Enough is enough....

Going the "I feel insulted" route is usually not a good idea. It's annoying if somebody from overseas criticizes your country, but here is Texas' own Beto O'Rourke calling Texas "a failed state":

"O'Rourke, who was one of many Democratic presidential hopefuls in the 2020 cycle, has frequently criticized Texas Republican leadership, arguing that "stupid culture battles" have turned the Lone Star State into a "failed state" and obscured more pressing problems, such as COVID-19 vaccine distribution and the local impact of the pandemic."

The situation in Texas is or was very bad, due to political extremism by types like Abbott and Cruz.