Aram Khachaturian (1903-1978)

[Mirror Image]

It is for me. I have to know exactly what the music represents to gain an understanding of the music. If I may use another composer's ballet as an example...I feel you could cut the vast majority of Act 3 of Tchaikovsky's Sleeping Beauty and you'd still have the same plot. 50 minutes of music and all it basically says is "They got married and lived happily ever after". I lose attention there. I want dramatic music that advances the story.

That Adagio is about 10 minutes out of the ballet's total of around 150. As you pointed out in the following sentence. It's little enough to say the ballet lacks in depth compared to other scores.

So here's a scenario for you: what if say Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet were written on purely non-programmatic terms, would you view the work any differently? Could you listen to it as an abstract piece of music?

[Mirror Image]

Khachaturian and Shostakovich were two very different composers. Khachaturian was deeply influenced by Armenian folk music - especially in his ballets - and used it to color his music with a bright, earthy feel that generally doesn't try to aim at profundity. Shostakovich, on the other hand, was a more "abstract", "serious" composer who saw himself as working in the symphonic tradition of Beethoven, Mahler, etc. His music also reflects the anxiety and uneasiness of his time and place more so than does Khachaturian's. That doesn't mean one composer is better than the other, just that they had two very different approaches to composition. That said, probably the closest Khachaturian got to Shostakovich in seriousness and ambition is in his 2nd Symphony, which IMO can stand comparison with the finest symphonies of Prokofiev and Shostakovich. So, if you're still not convinced that Khachaturian's music can have depth, give the 2nd Symphony a try!

QFT. I agree that it is nonsensical to approach Khachaturian with the mindset of wanting to hear dark, brooding Russian music. Sorry, but this isn't this composer's bag, but this isn't to say that his music lacked 'depth' because this wasn't the case at all. It's just as you mentioned, Kyle, his compositional style is different and, also, he really wasn't a 'Russian' composer anyway as he felt his was a voice crying out for the Armenian people. It might be a good idea if Maestro267 read more about Khachaturian. I believe one of the biggest crises in his compositional career was being denounced by the Soviet musical establishment as I do strongly feel that he felt he was doing good work and then comes this slap in the face. Must have crushed him. I guess I'll find out more about this in the documentary on the composer's life I have coming.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Reminds me of the philosophers' debates I read years ago on (hypothetically) two identical paintings created by two artists with different intentions. They were divided on whether the two paintings are artistically the same or not.

So here's a scenario for you: what if say Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet were written on purely non-programmatic terms, would you view the work any differently? Could you listen to it as an abstract piece of music?

[Mirror Image]

Reminds me of the philosophers' debates I read years ago on (hypothetically) two identical paintings created by two artists with different intentions. They were divided on whether the two paintings are artistically the same or not.

Hmmm...food for thought.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

The cup noodle I microwave seems to taste different every week.

Hmmm...food for thought.

[vers la flamme]

I've heard nothing but Gayaneh Suite No.1 & Symphony No.2, but I'm enjoying them a bit lately. Where to from here?

[Mirror Image]

I've heard nothing but Gayaneh Suite No.1 & Symphony No.2, but I'm enjoying them a bit lately. Where to from here?

The complete Gayane (the Tjeknavorian recording is a must hear) and then perhaps one of the concerti.

[Christo]

I've heard nothing but Gayaneh Suite No.1 & Symphony No.2, but I'm enjoying them a bit lately. Where to from here?

I would start with the violin concerto, the most infectious of the three IMO.

[vandermolen]

I guess that I had to jump on the Khachaturian bandwagon sooner or later with you lot here  .
Currently listening to Symphony No.2 (Temirkanov) - a most interesting performance from 1970 (live) - obviously it's not the sonic-spectacular of Jarvi's recording for example but it is deeply felt and a convincing interpretation, featuring some unusually lyrical sections, especially in the opening movement. The excitement builds up cumulatively and I have been gripped throughout.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

As for the No.2, this is my routine album nowadays. Conducted by K himself and substantially different from the Jarvi set. I will check the Termirkanov recording recommended by Jeffrey.

[vandermolen]

As for the No.2, this is my routine album nowadays. Conducted by K himself and substantially different from the Jarvi set. I will check the Termirkanov recording recommended by Jeffrey.

That's a fine performance as well as is his Decca recording with the VPO.
Here is a review of the Temirkanov box:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2008/June08/Temirkanov_8818.htm

[Mirror Image]

Good to see some love for the 2nd symphony. What a fantastic work!

[Mirror Image]

It is for me. I have to know exactly what the music represents to gain an understanding of the music. If I may use another composer's ballet as an example...I feel you could cut the vast majority of Act 3 of Tchaikovsky's Sleeping Beauty and you'd still have the same plot. 50 minutes of music and all it basically says is "They got married and lived happily ever after". I lose attention there. I want dramatic music that advances the story.

So here's a scenario for you: what if say Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet were written on purely non-programmatic terms, would you view the work any differently? Could you listen to it as an abstract piece of music?

I guess you're still thinking about the questions?

[kyjo]

I would start with the violin concerto, the most infectious of the three IMO.

+1 It's one of my all-time favorite violin concerti. I enjoy the Piano Concerto very much as well, especially its sinuous slow movement with its delightfully weird part for flexatone. I struggle a bit more with the Cello Concerto, a darker work which seems to me to lack a bit of the lyrical "heart" and engaging color that I'm used to from Khachaturian. I'm still unfamiliar with the three Concerto-Rhapsodies...

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

So here's a scenario for you: what if say Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet were written on purely non-programmatic terms, would you view the work any differently? Could you listen to it as an abstract piece of music?

I think this is a good question.
A materialist (M) would maintain that R&J would remain as a same work, thereby remain good (or bad), regardless it was written for ballet music or non-thematic music. M believes that physical entities in materialist conditions (existing sound, color, shape) are the art works. An idealist (D) would assume that art work is an intended idea, and a physical work is merely an executed "presentation" of an idea/art work. Consequently, D may say that R&J is bad as a ballet music but good as a non-thematic music. For a more extreme example, M would consider that Crime and Punishment in the original Russian text is more legitimate work to English speaking people than is C&P in a translated English text to the latter. In contrast, D would maintain that the English copy is more relevant work than the original Russian text to the English speaking people since the former better conveys the idea.
In reality, most art lovers are near the center on the continuum between the two extremes. We listen music, form opinion about it, and it may influence about our philosophy of music, rather than forming philosophy first and making opinion about music works subsequently.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

+1

The complete Gayane (the Tjeknavorian recording is a must hear) and then perhaps one of the concerti.

[Mirror Image]

I think this is a good question.
A materialist (M) would maintain that R&J would remain as a same work, thereby remain good (or bad), regardless it was written for ballet music or non-thematic music. M believes that physical entities in materialist conditions (existing sound, color, shape) are the art works. An idealist (D) would assume that art work is an intended idea, and a physical work is merely an executed "presentation" of an idea/art work. Consequently, D may say that R&J is bad as a ballet music but good as a non-thematic music. For a more extreme example, M would consider that Crime and Punishment in the original Russian text is more legitimate work to English speaking people than is C&P in a translated English text to the latter. In contrast, D would maintain that the English copy is more relevant work than the original Russian text to the English speaking people since the former better conveys the idea.
In reality, most art lovers are near the center on the continuum between the two extremes. We listen music, form opinion about it, and it may influence about our philosophy of music, rather than forming philosophy first and making opinion about music works subsequently.

I think, ultimately, what it boils down to is some people have their minds wrapped up in everything but the music. The music doesn't have to have a program to be enjoyed and if does have a program, then it can still be enjoyed on purely musical terms. I think anyone who says they can't listen to a ballet without knowing the plot or what the music 'represents' is actually doing a disservice to the music because as I've stated many times if a piece of music is good enough to stand on its own, then it should be able to be enjoyed.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Though it is not a famous work, the Dance Suite is one of my favorite K compositions. The music sounds like an extension of Gayene with folkish melodies based on the Turkish, Western and Slavic scales. I know only two CD sets (Tjeknavorian/ASV/Alto and Anichanov/Naxos) and a LP record (Ginastera). They all sound wonderful, but arguably the Ginastera record may offer the best performance followed by the Naxos date. The Tjeknavorian set is very good with good sound quality as well. It is a little more relaxed. Hope someone will issue a new recording of the Dance Suite (as well as the full-Gayene) in the near future.

[vandermolen]

Though it is not a famous work, the Dance Suite is one of my favorite K compositions. The music sounds like an extension of Gayene with folkish melodies based on the Turkish, Western and Slavic scales. I know only two CD sets (Tjeknavorian/ASV/Alto and Anichanov/Naxos) and a LP record (Ginastera). They all sound wonderful, but arguably the Ginastera record may offer the best performance followed by the Naxos date. The Tjeknavorian set is very good with good sound quality as well. It is a little more relaxed. Hope someone will issue a new recording of the Dance Suite (as well as the full-Gayene) in the near future.

I don't know the Dance Suite at all. Must look out for it.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Yes please!
I am not sure if you would like it.....
It is not sophisticated or magnificent like his Symphonies.
Five pieces with folkish themes with tasteful orchestration.

The pic of Naxos date is added.

I don't know the Dance Suite at all. Must look out for it.