what to look for when following a score

[Larry Rinkel]

That score appeared to me in utero, so, technically, Brahms op. 15 was also my "first score" .........

Considering how many revisions Brahms made, it must have been a difficult birth! 

[jochanaan]

I think there is a fundamental difference of perception here.

Some are advocating reading the scores to improve understanding, some are advocating reading the scores to be awestruck.  Either is fine, but they are not necessarily compatibile...

Well, since there's so much "disagreement" flying around, let me add a little more: I believe they are perfectly compatible.  The more I understand, the more awestruck I am.

[greg]

a question i have (can anybody answer this?) is once you become extremely good at reading scores, how fast can you get at reading one? I understand there's certain factors that may slow you down when reading, but.....
i've heard of pianists sight reading pretty hard stuff, just looking at it and playing at that moment. Is this common?
also, are there conductors who can read really fast, like understand a page of a dense score (even a non-C score) really fast, less than 30 seconds?

[BachQ]

I believe they are perfectly compatible.  The more I understand, the more awestruck I am.

I agree ! 

[Larry Rinkel]

a question i have (can anybody answer this?) is once you become extremely good at reading scores, how fast can you get at reading one? I understand there's certain factors that may slow you down when reading, but.....
i've heard of pianists sight reading pretty hard stuff, just looking at it and playing at that moment. Is this common?
also, are there conductors who can read really fast, like understand a page of a dense score (even a non-C score) really fast, less than 30 seconds?

Sight-reading at the piano is different from following a score. Part of sight-reading at the piano is the instant ability to find correct fingerings, hand positions, and phrasing for whatever you see on the page. Of course, your knowledge of harmony and familiarity with piano textures helps. I can generally sight-read anything I can play that wouldn't require practice.

Following a score is more passive.

[greg]

Sight-reading at the piano is different from following a score. Part of sight-reading at the piano is the instant ability to find correct fingerings, hand positions, and phrasing for whatever you see on the page. Of course, your knowledge of harmony and familiarity with piano textures helps. I can generally sight-read anything I can play that wouldn't require practice.

Following a score is more passive.

ok, cool....
but do you know if there are conductors, like Boulez, who can pick up a totally unfamiliar score (which is not TOO complex) and be able to instantly understand the music, maybe even at the speed it's played? that would be really nice 

[DavidW]

Well, since there's so much "disagreement" flying around, let me add a little more: I believe they are perfectly compatible.  The more I understand, the more awestruck I am.

Well that's not actually disagreeing with what I said.  I didn't say that you can't be awestruck when you learn to understand, I said that if your intention is to be awestruck you want to follow a different strategy from the strategy you would take if your intention was only to learn.

Hey Luke, okay so you started studying scores with that Brahms work, but did you also start playing music with that work?  It just doesn't seem fair to separate studying scores away from the aspect of music playing that starts with the basics of understanding scores.  That's where you really begin, it's disingenuous to pretend that you begin by just picking up a huge, complex work.

[jochanaan]

ok, cool....
but do you know if there are conductors, like Boulez, who can pick up a totally unfamiliar score (which is not TOO complex) and be able to instantly understand the music, maybe even at the speed it's played? that would be really nice 

Fritz Reiner, who taught at the Curtis Institute for Music during the 1930s, boasted, "When students have completed a course under my direction, any one of them can stand up before an orchestra he has never seen before and conduct a new piece at first sight without verbal explanation, by means of only manual technique." (quoted in Harold C. Schonberg, The Great Conductors)  Given Reiner's own legendary technique and love for then-contemporary music, I don't doubt that he had that ability and was able to pass it on.  Leonard Bernstein was one of his pupils.

It is said that Arthur Nikisch (1855-1922) had similar sight-reading abilities.  One story relates that Nikisch stepped in front of an orchestra with a score by Max Reger.  Reger suggested that they try the final fugue.  Nikisch agreed, then started thumbing through the score.  After a few moments he asked in agitation, "Where is it?  Where is it?"  Reger growled, "There is none."

And I believe that Pierre Monteux had similar abilities, which is why Stravinsky picked him to lead so many of his premieres.

[greg]

i wish Fritz Reiner would be my teacher   0:)

[lukeottevanger]

Hey Luke, okay so you started studying scores with that Brahms work, but did you also start playing music with that work?  It just doesn't seem fair to separate studying scores away from the aspect of music playing that starts with the basics of understanding scores.  That's where you really begin, it's disingenuous to pretend that you begin by just picking up a huge, complex work.

Well, David, my mentioning the Brahms as a 'less complex score' with which to start was just a playful dig at our Brahms PC1 fixated friend D minor! Though it is true that it was the first full orchestral score I owned (my father had bought a copy in the 60s and passed it down to me). By this time - I was about 12, I suppose - I could read music well, and was quite an advanced pianist, and I don't really remember reading full scores of any complexity ever to have presented a problem to me. I also started to try playing from scores at this time - I remember playing piano-only passages (like the second subject of the first movement of this concerto) and not wanting the music to end, so finding my way through the orchestral music that follows...

But playing from a score, as Larry has said, is of course a different matter to simply reading the score . As you say, you don't start playing music with Brahms PC1. You start playing, and connected to this, reading, with far simpler music, naturally. But once you can read music, following even the most complex score [and we must differentiate between orchestral/chamber scores and music for only one or two players] is far easier than playing it would be - two very different activities. As Larry said, following a score is a passive activity - you are under no obligation to read every note, you can pay as much attention as you wish, you can let the music pass before eyes like great shifting masses of sound, you can even (with practice) tune out and somehow know, when you tune back in again, exactly where in the book you must turn to. When you are playing from a score you have no such luxury - it is a more advanced skill, to be sure.

[jochanaan]

i wish Fritz Reiner would be my teacher   0:)

You're about four and a half decades too late. But you might still have a chance at Maestra Marin Alsop, who studied with Bernstein, who studied with Reiner.

[m_gigena]

Start big.  I started with the score to Mahler 3 in d minor ........ and I still recall the pervasive feeling of awe and wonder over Mahler's amazing achievement(s) ..........

I started with Verdi's Aida, and my first symphony was Mahler's 8th. 

I was not my first experience with scores, though. I had been playing piano for a few years then.