HIP Debate Chapter 85,000

[DavidW]

Yes, that's a point often made.

I don't even see the relevance of that point.  Are Madiel and Brian saying that PI recordings shouldn't even exist because they're sure that the composers would have preferred modern instruments?? 

Okay if Beethoven magically travels forward in time, I'll let him hear Kempff play his music.  But until that time, nobody is taking Badura-Skoda away from me.  Hell Beethoven himself could not take Badura-Skoda away from me!

[Spotted Horses]

I don't even see the relevance of that point.  Are Madiel and Brian saying that PI recordings shouldn't even exist because they're sure that the composers would have preferred modern instruments?? 

Okay if Beethoven magically travels forward in time, I'll let him hear Kempff play his music.  But until that time, nobody is taking Badura-Skoda away from me.  Hell Beethoven himself could not take Badura-Skoda away from me!

It would have to be a young Beethoven who hadn't written the late works, otherwise he couldn't hear Kempff or anyone else play his music!

Maybe I should listen to the Badura-Skoda you speak of.

[Todd]

The PI/HIP movement is a "post-modern" aesthetic endeavor. While musicians have a lot of information on which to base a PI/HIP performance, ultimately they are making the kind of sound according to their taste, which is formed by modern values.  I doubt any musician today (and for some time) has made a claim of authenticity since everyone is aware of the delusional nature of such a claim.  But their intention is to make a good performance using the known correct instruments of the period.

This. 

I almost always prefer modern instruments, and then something like the Festetics Quartet will come along . . .

[Mandryka]

Speculating about these kinds of issues can be an interesting exercise. However, the bottomline is (and this is true for all music, any period, any performance philosophy) a performer, or ensemble, approaches the music with the intent to make the best of it using their collective talent, experience, and scholarship.

The authenticity dilemma is that because we can't truly know what a composer from 200-300 years ago might have intended, all we are left with are the scores, the documented performance practice, the specific instruments of the period, and the good faith of the performers.

The PI/HIP movement is a "post-modern" aesthetic endeavor. While musicians have a lot of information on which to base a PI/HIP performance, ultimately they are making the kind of sound according to their taste, which is formed by modern values.  I doubt any musician today (and for some time) has made a claim of authenticity since everyone is aware of the delusional nature of such a claim.  But their intention is to make a good performance using the known correct instruments of the period.

Generally, I prefer the sound of PI over modern ones, but that doesn't mean I only listen to those recordings. I love Schiff's ECM Bach and Beethoven recordings. And some PI recordings do not strike me as especially good or better.  As always everything depends on the specific performer(s) and our own personal preferences.

I think it's wrong to think of authentic performance as a copy of some performance in the composer's day. Rather, it's a performance in the style of musicians who formed part of the composer's primary target market.

Lots of today's performers make the claim to authenticity in this sense. Markus Schafer in Schubert song cycles for example, and Thomas Zehetmair in Brahms symphonies, and Ensemble Fratres in Mozart quintets. Just off the top of my head. Dudok Qt members came very close to claiming it recently for Tchaikovsky quartets too.

[prémont]

It would have to be a young Beethoven who hadn't written the late works, otherwise he couldn't hear Kempff or anyone else play his music!

Even Kempff has played for deaf ears before.

[Madiel]

Yes, that's a point often made. Although the only example I usually hear and gets used over and over again, is Beethoven. But those composers didn't have a crystal ball to predict what the exact characteristics of those "improved" instruments would be like. They only knew what they knew, and that is what they wrote for. Maybe Beethoven would have absolutely hated a modern Steinway D? Just a thought...

Shostakovich.

[Madiel]

I don't even see the relevance of that point.  Are Madiel and Brian saying that PI recordings shouldn't even exist because they're sure that the composers would have preferred modern instruments?? 

Okay if Beethoven magically travels forward in time, I'll let him hear Kempff play his music.  But until that time, nobody is taking Badura-Skoda away from me.  Hell Beethoven himself could not take Badura-Skoda away from me!

No, what I'm saying is that it shouldn't be assumed that PI recordings are inherently better for being on period instruments.

And there most certainly are people who do assume that. There's a difference between liking the sound of a fortepiano and treating it like the sound is morally superior.

[DavidW]

And there most certainly are people who do assume that.

Then who are they? 

[Madiel]

Then who are they? 

Oh please. Do you think I keep a dossier?

I said I was moving on. The conversation kept going for a couple of days and I got mentioned by name again. The next time Herman quotes something I said 13 months earlier I'll try to ignore it.

EDIT: But hey, the next time someone sneers at me for  listening to Bach on a modern piano, I'll get back to you.

[DavidW]

EDIT: But hey, the next time someone sneers at me for  listening to Bach on a modern piano, I'll get back to you.

Well that won't happen, unless it is from a Stockhausen fiend that is mocking you for listening to Bach!

[steve ridgway]

Well that won't happen, unless it is from a Stockhausen fiend that is mocking you for listening to Bach!

I don't think there'd be any problem as long as an appropriate ring modulator was employed .

[Madiel]

Stockhausen fans are a vanishingly rare subspecies and I'd probably want to document the encounter.

This is supposed to be a Mozart thread. Also, I'd like some sleep before I fly to Spain tomorrow. Goodnight.

[Herman]

Strongly disagree!  It is a dumb argument.  But like so many others here, I'm absolutely tired of having this and correcting these nonsensical ideas.  There is no zero sum game between MI and PI anything.  Why are we even having this in 2024?  This is decades too late.  The rest of us have moved on to a broader, more sophisticated appreciation of music.

And I'm sure wherever Herman stands he is probably tired of the debate too.  Which is why he didn't say that BRIAN.  You put words in his mouth and I'm totally blaming this on you!

Well, for one thing I would not have started a topic about this. I think my OP remarks were lifted out of another topic.

[DavidW]

Well, for one thing I would not have started a topic about this. I think my OP remarks were lifted out of another topic.

Yes it wasn't you.  I clipped the whole thing from the Mozart thread because it was off topic.