Composers about Composers - Stupidest Statements

[AnotherSpin]

From the Boulez stuff quoted above:

You know, in the history of music, there are composers without whom the face of music would be completely different, and composers whom if they had never existed, it would have made no difference whatsoever.

Reminds me that his whole approach was a kind of ideological, teleological one. Composers were good if they "advanced" music in certain ways (such ways being defined by Boulez, of course). If they didn't advance music, they were irrelevant, regardless of whether you enjoyed their music or not.

It seemed to me a crippling ideological straitjacket to put on. As listeners, we are lucky that we can ignore this kind of rhetoric and just enjoy the music, whether it fulfills Boulez's cramped intellectual paradigm or not.

There is no doubt that the influence of certain composers on the development of music has been so detrimental that it has taken music (and listeners) a long time to recover. There are many cases, especially in the musical history of the 20th century.

[AnotherSpin]

I'm not going to let this go unanswered. There is no misogyny here. I mentioned Yuja Wang deliberately, and would have not said the same thing about Martha Argerich, Alicia de la Rocha, Annie Fischer, Beatrice Rana, or any number of other fine women pianists. But as anyone who follows Yuja Wang's career has noticed, she does everything she can to market herself as a sex object, wearing garishly colorful, skin-tight, skimpy outfits plainly intended to draw attention to her feminine assets rather than her musical talents. The fact that almost every one of her New York Philharmonic and Carnegie Hall appearances next season is sold out is not just a reflection of her pianism. Sex sells.

With no less justification, Yuja Wang can be criticised for promoting the cult of a perfect physique and a healthy back — could Martha Argerich or Alicia de la Rocha bow like that?

[(poco) Sforzando]

With no less justification, Yuja Wang can be criticised for promoting the cult of a perfect physique and a healthy back — could Martha Argerich or Alicia de la Rocha bow like that?

Martha Argerich has one of the most awkward bows I've ever seen. Yuja can do whatever she likes given her healthy back, but it can't be denied that no pianist is better costumed for brothel music than one who looks like she's ready to turn tricks in the middle of Times Square.

[steve ridgway]

This does make me aware that I've been merely listening to recordings and haven't actually thought about what the musicians look like 🫣.

[AnotherSpin]

Martha Argerich has one of the most awkward bows I've ever seen. Yuja can do whatever she likes given her healthy back, but it can't be denied that no pianist is better costumed for brothel music than one who looks like she's ready to turn tricks in the middle of Times Square.

I'm not familiar with how people dress in brothels or what kind of music is played there. Judging by Yuja Wang's programs, it's Rachmaninoff, Ravel, Prokofiev, and so on. Thanks for clarifying; now I know. It also seems to me that styles vary quite a bit between different countries. Or even within one country, people from different racial and cultural groups dress differently, I've seen that many times in America. In my country, women dress quite stylishly; high heels or bold dresses are common, and that's how they go out for a stroll in the evening.

[AnotherSpin]

This does make me aware that I've been merely listening to recordings and haven't actually thought about what the musicians look like 🫣.

Totally agree. Many times I've felt uncomfortable seeing my favourite musicians look or behave strangely while playing music. Keith Jarrett, for example. Having to turn on the 'suspension of disbelief' to the max...

[ritter]

Let us please stop discussing the physique and dress of musicians, and stick to the topic at hand. If that discussion continues, we can all guess where it will head,  and the moderation team will have to step in.

Thanks!

[Todd]

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why there are so few female posters here and why that has always been the case. 

[pjme]

From Virgil Thomsons "Music reviewed 1940-1954"

"Set Svanholm's slender figure is of no help to Wagner, though his handsome singing is.Wagner's music dramas are conceived for whales...."

"Three piano pieces by Roger Sessions, though harmonically sophisticted, were as dead as the day of their birth"
Messiaens Trois petites liturgies - first US performance under Stokowski November 19 1949
"Religious corn...a case not unlike Scriabin.....he is a skilled harmonist and orchestator, full of theories and animated by no small afflatus, but that there is a sugarin his product which keeps it from congealing.it is druglike, pretty-pretty, hypnotic...a pietistic conception of some grandeur to the level of the late Aimee Semple McPherson".
About beethoven's Missa solemnis (1953):
"Loud and grand....the grandeur of its conception cannot be questioned, but much of its detail is weak and does not carry. Nor does a great deal of the choral writing really "sound"; it is too loud and too high much of the time. Orchestrally also the work has little to offer of charm or variety. The scoring lacks color, as does also the harmony, which is limited almost entirely to its architectural function.The work is of an extraordinary plainness  ...it sounds like a tempest over the atlantic..." Etc.
An often  fun and yet enlightening,  read .
Debussy as monsieur Croche is another treasure trove

"Personally, I should have been only mildly flattered! Beethoven's sonatas are very badly written for the piano; they are, particularly those that came later, more accurately described as orchestral transcriptions. There seems often to be lacking a third hand which I am sure Beethoven heard; at least I hope so. It would have been safer to leave Schumann and Chopin alone; undoubtedly they wrote for the piano...."

[LKB]

From Virgil Thompsons "Music reviewed 1940-1954"

"Set Svanholm's slender figure is of no help to Wagner, though his handsome singing is.Wagner's music dramas are conceived for whales...."

"Three piano pieces by Roger Sessions, though harmonically sophisticted, were as dead as the day of their birth"
Messiaens Trois petites liturgies - first US performance under Stokowski November 19 1949
"Religious corn...a case not unlike Scriabin.....he is a skilled harmonist and orchestator, full of theories and animated by no small afflatus, but that there is a sugarin his product which keeps it from congealing.it is druglike, pretty-pretty, hypnotic...a pietistic conception of some grandeur to the level of the late Aimee Semple McPherson".
About beethoven's Missa solemnis (1953):
"Loud and grand....the grandeur of its conception cannot be questioned, but much of its detail is weak and does not carry. Nor does a great deal of the choral writing really "sound"; it is too loud and too high much of the time. Orchestrally also the work has little to offer of charm or variety. The scoring lacks color, as does also the harmony, which is limited almost entirely to its architectural function.The work is of an extraordinary plainness  ...it sounds like a tempest over the atlantic..." Etc.
An often  fun and yet enlightening,  read .

Thanks for the post. I'm not well-acquainted with Mr. Thomson, and judging from these samples I'm fortunate in that respect.

[pjme]

Thanks for the post. I'm not well-acquainted with Mr. Thompson, and judging from these samples I'm fortunate in that respect.

I bought the book many years ago and loved his "precise, boldly coloured, frequently outrageous always penetrating comments".
Thomson was witness to "the heat of history in the making" and his pen was sharp enough to endure.
His music has faded however...
It is Thomson, not Thompson....sorry...

[Karl Henning]

This does make me aware that I've been merely listening to recordings and haven't actually thought about what the musicians look like 🫣.

Nought wrong with that.