Return (sort of)

[Karl Henning]

Yeah, they're fickle, aren't they? That was really what sponsored my tirade. Nothing Madiel said, just them liking his post.

Hey, if that tirade (which did not strike me as a tirade) sprang from my liking a post, I'm glad I done it.  😎

[Madiel]

Oh for fuck's sake @ritter. "We all know how this ends" is exactly your fucking problem, because you play out a narrative in your head BEFORE something happens and make assumptions.

No matter how many times I tell you, you simply will not go and read the relevant posts and see that it bears out not only what I told you today, but I what told you then: it was not Todd who prompted me to post. I actually used the term "you all" which is clearly plural not singular.

Somebody who clings to a narrative in their head that does not align with the actual evidence that is still available in posts is not setting the record straight. They are wilfully refusing to do so.

You've just explicitly committed to prejudging a situation, leaping in with your hammer because you believe you've seen a nail. AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT SPOTTED HORSES AND I ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT.

[Florestan]

@Florestan, I wanted to add the constant denigration of Wagner as another reason for swift action by the moderation, but my fellow moderators would have none of that! 

You could silence me of course, but could you prevent Stravinsky's or Nietzsche's books from being read? 

For the rest, I stand by my point that what we need is more detachment and nonchalance and less involvement and seriousness.

[Karl Henning]

this habit of some people here to constantly report posts

I guess I'm somehow aloof to this. I had no idea any of us are in this habit.

[hopefullytrusting]

You will find it here

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,33488.msg1587119.html#msg1587119

It was the culmination of a series of posts where discussion of Yuja Wang gets progressively more vulgar. I have heard by PM from another member that it was brought to moderator attention, with no result. It might not have been done by pressing the "report to moderator" button, but by a PM to one or more moderators.

You need to report it if you feel it needs reporting.

I've gone ahead and done that for you, if you haven't already.

[ritter]

Oh for fuck's sake @ritter. "We all know how this ends" is exactly your fucking problem, because you play out a narrative in your head BEFORE something happens and make assumptions.

No matter how many times I tell you, you simply will not go and read the relevant posts and see that it bears out not only what I told you today, but I what told you then: it was not Todd who prompted me to post. I actually used the term "you all" which is clearly plural not singular.

Somebody who clings to a narrative in their head that does not align with the actual evidence that is still available in posts is not setting the record straight. They are wilfully refusing to do so.

You've just explicitly committed to prejudging a situation, leaping in with your hammer because you believe you've seen a nail. AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT SPOTTED HORSES AND I ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT.

Taylor Swift, anyone?

[Spotted Horses]

You need to report it if you feel it needs reporting.

I've gone ahead and find that for you, if you haven't already.

done

[Madiel]

Taylor Swift, anyone?

That's about as understandable as your Spanish phrase earlier.

[hopefullytrusting]

done

I had not seen that, but that is most definitely in poor taste, and is exactly the kind of commentary that drove many women posters away in the past because of the "good old boys' club".

[Florestan]

o my mind, any post that includes the following is eminently likable:

This is indeed a good point. Many posts contain multiple points and liking the post generally does not automatically imply liking all of them, and a Like is quicker and much less time consuming than quoting each point individually, although it might in some cases give the (false) impression of agreement with contradictory views.

[ritter]

That's about as understandable as your Spanish phrase earlier.

You should know which posts you've reported, and the reasons why...

And it would appear we will have to remind members that foul language is not permitted on the forum either. Your exasperation is probably as high as mine at this stage, but that does not justify certain expressions.

And since you've turned the issue of Jimmy Fallon into a matter of life or death, Madiel, read the thread again: I did not intervene after your initial post on the matter, I intervened when the discussion was starting to be a rhetorical duel  between you and the other poster. Taylor Swift, anyone?

[Florestan]

I had not seen that, but that is most definitely in poor taste, and is exactly the kind of commentary that drove many women posters away in the past because of the "good old boys' club".

I had seen those comments (there's more than one) right when they were freshly posted but for some reason failed to give my two cents, so here they are now. I find nothing objectionable in Yuja Wang's concert outfits. There's no reason for her to hide her youth and beauty. And those offended by her appearance can always close their eyes, not to mention their first option is not going to her concerts. But I think people go to her concerts first and foremost because of how she plays. The visual aspect is either a bonus or an embarrassment, depending on one's taste.

[(poco) Sforzando]

You will find it here

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,33488.msg1587119.html#msg1587119

It was the culmination of a series of posts where discussion of Yuja Wang gets progressively more vulgar. I have heard by PM from another member that it was brought to moderator attention, with no result. It might not have been done by pressing the "report to moderator" button, but by a PM to one or more moderators.

You can't let this one go, can you? Our friend gets on his (or her, since I don't know their gender) high horses accusing me of misogyny while totally missing my point that it is Yuja Wang who intentionally sexualizes herself with her glittery skin-tight miniskirts and 4-inch heels. The same could never be said of any number of superb female instrumentalists and conductors such as Martha Argerich, Beatrice Rana, Hillary Hahn, Mitsuko Uchida, Annie Fischer, Susanna Malkki, Natalie Stutzmann, Marin Alsop, Anne-Sophie Mutter, Juana Zayas, Yuki Matsuzawa, and the long list could go on and on. But with Yuja it could hardly be said that "only the music matters," and if she doesn't want to be thought of as a sex object then why does she present herself as one. Surely she cannot pretend her outfits in any way enhance her pianism; instead they often make her the subject of ridicule. And I am hardly alone in this perception. Critic Mark Swed wrote of her appearance at the Hollywood Bowl:

But it was Yuja Wang's orange dress for which Tuesday night is likely to be remembered... Her dress Tuesday was so short and tight that had there been any less of it, the Bowl might have been forced to restrict admission to any music lover under 18 not accompanied by an adult. Had her heels been any higher, walking, to say nothing of her sensitive pedaling, would have been unfeasible.

Please don't create a caricature of me as "misogynist" when I refer to only one specific and egregious case which if anything sets back the cause of taking women seriously as musical artists. And what "result" would have satisfied you? Deleting all my posts? Banning me from the forum?

[Madiel]

You should know which posts you've reported, and the reasons why...

And it would appear we will have to remind members that foul language is not permitted on the forum either. Your exasperation is probably as high as mine at this stage, but that does not justify certain expressions.

And since you've turned the issue of Jimmy Fallon into a matter of life or death, Madiel, read the thread again: I did not intervene after your initial post on the matter, I intervened when the discussion was starting to be a rhetorical duel  between you and the other poster. Taylor Swift, anyone?

You intervened after exactly one reply, not a "duel". You also intervened with a false reason about the conversation being irrelevant rather than the real reason that you don't like me and Todd having any exchange whatsoever. The real reason took a 2nd go.

Again, your attitude of "we all know how this ends" leads you to make assumptions. I have now told you at least 5 times that on that occasion your assumption was completely wrong. Yet you persist. Either you think you can just ignore me or you think I'm a liar. Quite why you reached out to meet me in person in Madrid, when you clearly think so little of me, I've no idea.

But for my part, I think a person who repeatedly commits to leaping to a conclusion about knowing ahead of time how these things end is not suited to being a moderator.

[DavidW]

Okay, I apologize for flying off the handle last night. I was not expecting this enormous thread. I was expecting Madiel to reply, and then to have some posters quietly liking his post and some liking mine. I am stupid. I should have seen this coming.

We might end up saying things we regret or are constantly to deal with insults.

Before that happens... let us take a breather. I'll leave the posts up to show that I am seriously listening to the criticism that I'm too trigger-happy at deleting posts without thinking enough about it.

But it is time for a temporary lock.

[DavidW]

Okay thread unlocked.

[Spotted Horses]

You can't let this one go, can you? Our friend gets on his (or her, since I don't know their gender) high horses accusing me of misogyny while totally missing my point that it is Yuja Wang who intentionally sexualizes herself with her glittery skin-tight miniskirts and 4-inch heels. The same could never be said of any number of superb female instrumentalists and conductors such as Martha Argerich, Beatrice Rana, Hillary Hahn, Mitsuko Uchida, Annie Fischer, Susanna Malkki, Natalie Stutzmann, Marin Alsop, Anne-Sophie Mutter, Juana Zayas, Yuki Matsuzawa, and the long list could go on and on. But with Yuja it could hardly be said that "only the music matters," and if she doesn't want to be thought of as a sex object then why does she present herself as one. Surely she cannot pretend her outfits in any way enhance her pianism; instead they often make her the subject of ridicule. And I am hardly alone in this perception. Critic Mark Swed wrote of her appearance at the Hollywood Bowl:

Please don't create a caricature of me as "misogynist" when I refer to only one specific and egregious case which if anything sets back the cause of taking women seriously as musical artists. And what "result" would have satisfied you? Deleting all my posts? Banning me from the forum?

In any concert the musician's stage presence is part of the performance, from Bernstein's pointless jumping up and down on the podium to Karajan's priest-like demeanor to Pollini's slapping page turners on the stage.  Yuja Wang would say she likes replacing the stultifying solemnly of the typical classical performance with a fun and exciting atmosphere, that the way she dresses feels liberating to her. And it brings attention to her artistry, not always the sort of attention that she wants. Your repeated comments, equating her to a woman selling sex for money, strikes me as a projection of misogynistic attitudes, that only modest, chaste women are deserving of respect.

[hopefullytrusting]

In any concert the musician's stage presence is part of the performance, from Bernstein's pointless jumping up and down on the podium to Karajan's priest-like demeanor to Pollini's slapping page turners on the stage.  Yuja Wang would say she likes replacing the stultifying solemnly of the typical classical performance with a fun and exciting atmosphere, that the way she dresses feels liberating to her. And it brings attention to her artistry, not always the sort of attention that she wants. Your repeated comments, equating her to a woman selling sex for money, strikes me as a projection of misogynistic attitudes, that only modest, chaste women are deserving of respect.

I find it very interesting that their prior quote, in extraordinary bad taste, is also still standing.

That tells us something, I suspect.

[Brian]

The sexism is in the assumption that a woman who dresses in a stylish manner is "intentionally sexualizing" herself. Unless there is an interview with Yuja Wang somewhere where she says explicitly that that is what she is doing? Otherwise, it is an assumption, an assumption grounded in a man's conviction that he knows how a woman should dress and he knows what a woman is thinking.

Last night I was reading a passage in Agatha Christie's memoir about how much women had to cover when they went to the beach, and how even the word "leg" was considered a sexual signal. She was taught as a child to call her legs her "lower limbs"! The problem of men feeling they can dictate how women's bodies appear in public is at least that old. As long as the eye of the beholder of a body is considered more important than the person who has the body.

If "misogynist" is too offensive, perhaps "beholder supremacist" might make the problem more clear.

[hopefullytrusting]

The sexism is in the assumption that a woman who dresses in a stylish manner is "intentionally sexualizing" herself. Unless there is an interview with Yuja Wang somewhere where she says explicitly that that is what she is doing? Otherwise, it is an assumption, an assumption grounded in a man's conviction that he knows how a woman should dress and he knows what a woman is thinking.

Last night I was reading a passage in Agatha Christie's memoir about how much women had to cover when they went to the beach, and how even the word "leg" was considered a sexual signal. She was taught as a child to call her legs her "lower limbs"! The problem of men feeling they can dictate how women's bodies appear in public is at least that old. As long as the eye of the beholder of a body is considered more important than the person who has the body.

If "misogynist" is too offensive, perhaps "beholder supremacist" might make the problem more clear.

And, yet, the post still stands.

Wang, who has done more for classical music than this entire forum combined entire existence - a whore.

How wonderfully droll and representative.