Elgar, as good a composer as......

[Harry]

What worries me are the ongoing attacks on Elgar as a composer. And the person on the board that is associated with him. The attacks are directed to him most of the time. And through it, Elgar's worth as a composer is constantly criticised as being secondhand.
Also the constant one liners of which there is no shortage is quite irritating, as if they are not able to find praise, and therefore seek to destroy!
That I side with Poju in his admiration for this composer may be clear. That he chooses not always the right way to approach those that are responsable for the attacks, is clear also, nevertheless he is right in his admiration. I am a Elgar admirer too.
Listening again to his Orchestral works, and chamber music makes clear that he belongs to those that have a rightful and honoured place in the pantheon of our cultural heritage.
So come on, and try to punch me!

[springrite]

I admire much of Elgar's music, and love the Cello Concerto, but find claims that Elgar is the greatest to be utterly stupid. Then again, it's a matter of personal taste. Anyone has the right to think Elgar or Yani to be the greatest composer who ever lived. Ignorance and stupidity is legal and should be tolerated in any democratic and civilized society. 

[Mark]

I'm with you on this Harry. Even without the atacks on Poju (71dB), the constant jabs at Elgar that seem to be infecting every thread these days are not only wearisome in the extreme, but demonstrate a limited imagination on the part of the posters concerned. If you can't post something positive and relevant within a topic, then do us all a favour and sit on your hands.

[Lethevich]

Amazing works by Elgar that would be hard for many fans of romantic music to dislike:

Serenade for string orchestra, Op.20 (revised version of Three Pieces for string orchestra, 1888-92)
Variations on an Original Theme (Enigma) for orchestra, Op.36 (1899)
Sea Pictures, Song cycle for contralto and orchestra, Op.37 (1897-99)
Cockaigne (In London Town), Overture for orchestra, Op.40 (1900-01)
In the South (Alassio), Concert Overture for orchestra, Op.50 (1903-04)
Introduction and Allegro for string quartet and string orchestra, Op.47 (1904-05)
Falstaff, Symphonic Study for orchestra, Op.68 (1913)
Sospiri for string orchestra and harp, Op.70 (1914)
Sonata for violin and piano, Op.82 (1918)
String Quartet in E minor, Op.83 (1918)
Piano Quintet in A minor, Op.84 (1918-19)
Concerto for cello and orchestra in E minor, Op.85 (1918-19)

Other works which many people like, but more find less good:

The Dream of Gerontius, Oratorio for soloists, chorus and orchestra, Op.38 (1899-1900)
Pomp and Circumstance, Marches No.1-6 for orchestra, Op.39 (1901-1930; sketches, elaborated by Anthony Payne 2005-06)
Symphony No.1 in A flat for orchestra, Op.55 (1907-08)
Concerto for violin and orchestra in B minor, Op.61 (1909-10)
Symphony No.2 in E flat for orchestra, Op.63 (1909-11)
Symphony No 3 for orchestra, Op.88 (sketches, 1932-34, elaborated by Anthony Payne 1972-97)

There are many omissions which many would say are worth appearing in the second section. Pissing all over the composer at (literaly) every mention of his name has caused me to lose some respect for some people on this forum. Not that I think that it will actually "dent" his reputation - it's just a forum - but it demonstrates a negative and slightly vindictive attitude. Some of the comments also downright insult anybody who likes Elgar, out of misplaced zeal for attacking Poju in ever more crude ways.

[Mark]

Pissing all over the composer at (literaly) every mention of his name has caused me to lose some respect for some people on this forum. Not that I think that it will actually "dent" his reputation - it's just a forum - but it demonstrates a negative and slightly vindictive attitude. Some of the comments also downright insult anybody who likes Elgar, out of misplaced zeal for attacking Poju in ever more crude ways.

Very well put, Lethe.

Ignorance and stupidity is legal and should be tolerated in any democratic and civilized society. 

You're right. Which of course means that if we are to tolerate the ignorance and stupidity of those who hold minority opinions, we must regrettably also tolerate the views of those who oppose such opinions ... even when the persons who are in opposition know full well that their comments serve only to hurt and provoke, rather than to encourage a shift in perspective on the part of whomever's opinions they oppose.

[springrite]

You're right. Which of course means that if we are to tolerate the ignorance and stupidity of those who hold minority opinions, we must regrettably also tolerate the views of those who oppose such opinions ... even when the persons who are in opposition know full well that their comments serve only to hurt and provoke, rather than to encourage a shift in perspective on the part of whomever's opinions they oppose.

Ditto!

[Great Gable]

I have not borne witness to the Elgar bashing that has obviously gone before but there are some comments here that worry me.
I quote Mark - "Tolerate the ignorance and stupidity of those who hold minority opinions". I do hope this is aimed at specific individual(s). Otherwise, to state that a minority opinion should be tolerated or that anyone who holds such opinions is ignorant or stupid, is deeply worrying.
As I see it a minority opinion is just that - MINORITY - as opposed to being held by the majority. Even an extreme view of racial purity, for example, is only a differing opinion held by a minority. Regardless of it's moral or political correctness, it is neither WRONG nor RIGHT. Something only becomes de facto when encompassed within legislation and even then will be open to debate from the perspective of moralising or semantics and I digress.

Forgive me if I am reading this out of context or merely have grabbed the wrong end of the stick, coming as I do, to the forum at this stage of the proceedings.

[Harry]

I admire much of Elgar's music, and love the Cello Concerto, but find claims that Elgar is the greatest to be utterly stupid. Then again, it's a matter of personal taste. Anyone has the right to think Elgar or Yani to be the greatest composer who ever lived. Ignorance and stupidity is legal and should be tolerated in any democratic and civilized society. 

Since I don't think in great, greater greatest I tend to agree, with you. About that we should be mild with Poju! But taste is very personal, so I leave Poju the room for that.

[Harry]

There are many omissions which many would say are worth appearing in the second section. Pissing all over the composer at (literaly) every mention of his name has caused me to lose some respect for some people on this forum. Not that I think that it will actually "dent" his reputation - it's just a forum - but it demonstrates a negative and slightly vindictive attitude. Some of the comments also downright insult anybody who likes Elgar, out of misplaced zeal for attacking Poju in ever more crude ways.

Thank you Lethe for this fine and friendly posting.

[Mark]

I have not borne witness to the Elgar bashing that has obviously gone before but there are some comments here that worry me.
I quote Mark - "Tolerate the ignorance and stupidity of those who hold minority opinions". I do hope this is aimed at specific individual(s). Otherwise, to state that a minority opinion should be tolerated or that anyone who holds such opinions is ignorant or stupid, is deeply worrying.
As I see it a minority opinion is just that - MINORITY - as opposed to being held by the majority. Even an extreme view of racial purity, for example, is only a differing opinion held by a minority. Regardless of it's moral or political correctness, it is neither WRONG nor RIGHT. Something only becomes de facto when encompassed within legislation and even then will be open to debate from the perspective of moralising or semantics and I digress.

Fear not. I'm referring to a specific, ongoing situation, not to minority views in general. You were right to challenge the way I phrased things, and I agree with you entirely.

[Larry Rinkel]

Lighten up, y'all. Poju gives as good as he gets. None of this so-called "Elgar-bashing" has been about Elgar per se, and some of us have taken considerable pains to offer a balanced rather than exaggerated view of this composer's strengths and weaknesses.

[Florestan]

Elgar, as good a composer as...


...Dittersdorf, another innocent victim on this forum.

[Great Gable]

My apologies then Mark.

I have searched for some evidence of this but can't find anything specific. A user was cited "dminor" but I could find no trace of him - has he been expunged entirely from here?

[Mark]

Lighten up, y'all. Poju gives as good as he gets. None of this so-called "Elgar-bashing" has been about Elgar per se, and some of us have taken considerable pains to offer a balanced rather than exaggerated view of this composer's strengths and weaknesses.

You're right. Poju does fight back. But then there's all the instances of unprovoked 'Elgar bashing', which seem to pop up just about everywhere. If you don't like Elgar, that's fine. Just don't use any excuse to lash out at him ... and by 'him', I mean Poju as much as Elgar - the two names now synonymous on this forum. Attacking an entrenched position is NOT the best way to alter it.

Elgar, as good a composer as...


...Dittersdorf, another innocent victim on this forum.

Quite. And regrettably, this is ALSO down to Poju's fevered advocacy.

My apologies then Mark.

I have searched for some evidence of this but can't find anything specific. A user was cited "dminor" but I could find no trace of him - has he been expunged entirely from here?

No worries.

D Minor now goes by the name of Herzog ... something or other.

[Renfield]

Pissing all over the composer at (literaly) every mention of his name has caused me to lose some respect for some people on this forum. Not that I think that it will actually "dent" his reputation - it's just a forum - but it demonstrates a negative and slightly vindictive attitude. Some of the comments also downright insult anybody who likes Elgar, out of misplaced zeal for attacking Poju in ever more crude ways.

I very much agree with the entire quote, except perhaps for the part highlighted: it's not that I lose respect for the people that engage in such "sports". It's that I am forced to conclude there is a chance they really are this immature, a fact frustrating me to no end.

(And I do not measure maturity in comparison to myself, for the record. )

Otherwise, thank you, Harry, for giving us a chance to remind ourselves that there are people in this world who don't grab the shotgun and go for the village idiot at the first signs of provocation, or even people capable of realising there is no such thing as a "village idiot", among composers or otherwise, and be they named Dittersdorf, Elgar or Poju!

Decency! "He gives as good as he gets" is no excuse for conduct of this sort in an otherwise so-called "civilised" context, regardless of the circumstances.


Edit: Nice list, too, Lethe.

[Mark]

I very much agree with the entire quote, except perhaps for the part highlighted: it's not that I lose respect for the people that engage in such "sports". It's that I am forced to conclude there is a chance they really are this immature, a fact frustrating me to no end.

(And I do not measure maturity in comparison to myself, for the record. )

Otherwise, thank you, Harry, for giving us a chance to remind ourselves that there are people in this world who don't grab the shotgun and go for the village idiot at the first signs of provocation, or even people capable of realising there is no such thing as a "village idiot", among composers or otherwise, and be they named Dittersdorf, Elgar or Poju!

Decency! "He gives as good as he gets" is no excuse for conduct of this sort in an otherwise so-called "civilised" context, regardless of the circumstances.

Yep. You've got my vote.

[Thom]

Just to let you know where I stand. I couldn't agree more with Harry's eloquent opening statement and Mark's remarks in addition. I don't like to categorize composers in good, better, best either. The concept of a Pantheon of cultural heritage is very appealing. There is no doubt in my mind that Elgar is more than worthy to my esteem and admiration. His music gives me great pleasure over and over again.

[Harry]

Elgar, as good a composer as...


...Dittersdorf, another innocent victim on this forum.

Exactly, also beaten to pulp by the same posters....

[Harry]

I'm with you on this Harry. Even without the atacks on Poju (71dB), the constant jabs at Elgar that seem to be infecting every thread these days are not only wearisome in the extreme, but demonstrate a limited imagination on the part of the posters concerned. If you can't post something positive and relevant within a topic, then do us all a favour and sit on your hands.

Thank you Mark, I much appreciate all your comments.

[Harry]

I very much agree with the entire quote, except perhaps for the part highlighted: it's not that I lose respect for the people that engage in such "sports". It's that I am forced to conclude there is a chance they really are this immature, a fact frustrating me to no end.

(And I do not measure maturity in comparison to myself, for the record. )

Otherwise, thank you, Harry, for giving us a chance to remind ourselves that there are people in this world who don't grab the shotgun and go for the village idiot at the first signs of provocation, or even people capable of realising there is no such thing as a "village idiot", among composers or otherwise, and be they named Dittersdorf, Elgar or Poju!

Decency! "He gives as good as he gets" is no excuse for conduct of this sort in an otherwise so-called "civilised" context, regardless of the circumstances.


Edit: Nice list, too, Lethe.

You are welcome my friend.....