Elgar, as good a composer as......

[Harry]

Just to let you know where I stand. I couldn't agree more with Harry's eloquent opening statement and Mark's remarks in addition. I don't like to categorize composers in good, better, best either. The concept of a Pantheon of cultural heritage is very appealing. There is no doubt in my mind that Elgar is more than worthy to my esteem and admiration. His music gives me great pleasure over and over again.

Your posting gave me much joy, thank you Thom.

[Thom]

Your posting gave me much joy, thank you Thom.

You're more than welcome (and a good opportunity to change my name back to 'normal').

[Larry Rinkel]

Please. Noble as all these sentiments undoubtedly are, you are all overlooking the fact that Mr. Poju has insisted on referring to those who do not share his peculiar tastes as "brainwashed" and incapable of experiencing music with the fine degree of "sophistication" that only the "free-thinking" Poju brings to the table. He has also insisted on hijacking threads, such as the recent Bruckner/Mahler discussion, to turn them into referenda on the music of Edward Elgar. Had he not insisted at every turn on being provoking, had he simply stated he thinks Elgar's music is underrated and why, he could have made a better life for himself on this forum. But if someone is going to start calling experienced listeners "brainwashed" and the like, and will not desist despite all attempts to reason with him, he can't be too surprised if others fight back.

[Larry Rinkel]

Exactly, also beaten to pulp by the same posters....

Le pauvre homme . . .

[Mark]

Please. Noble as all these sentiments undoubtedly are, you are all overlooking the fact that Mr. Poju has insisted on referring to those who do not share his peculiar tastes as "brainwashed" and incapable of experiencing music with the fine degree of "sophistication" that only the "free-thinking" Poju brings to the table. He has also insisted on hijacking threads, such as the recent Bruckner/Mahler discussion, to turn them into referenda on the music of Edward Elgar. Had he not insisted at every turn on being provoking, had he simply stated he thinks Elgar's music is underrated and why, he could have made a better life for himself on this forum. But if someone is going to start calling experienced listeners "brainwashed" and the like, and will not desist despite all attempts to reason with him, he can't be too surprised if others fight back.

This is, of course, absolutely true. We should not paint Poju as snow-white in all this. Where he makes an ill-considered comment, he should expect to be (sometimes quite brutally, or at least in proportion to his own hostility) challenged - as any of us should likewise expect if we were to do the same. My beef is only with the unprovoked attacks that litter other threads where Poju hasn't voiced his staunch views about Elgar or Dittersdorf. It's here that the whole 'game' becomes horribly distracting and mind-numbingly dull.

[springrite]

My beef is only with the unprovoked attacks that litter other threads where Poju hasn't voiced his staunch views about Elgar or Dittersdorf.

Uh... aren't most if not all his attacks on the "brainwashed" people discussing music on non-Elgar threads also unprovoked?

[Larry Rinkel]

This is, of course, absolutely true. We should not paint Poju as snow-white in all this. Where he makes an ill-considered comment, he should expect to be (sometimes quite brutally, or at least in proportion to his own hostility) challenged - as any of us should likewise expect if we were to do the same. My beef is only with the unprovoked attacks that litter other threads where Poju hasn't voiced his staunch views about Elgar or Dittersdorf. It's here that the whole 'game' becomes horribly distracting and mind-numbingly dull.

Well, I don't know what "other" threads you're talking about. I can't read everything on this forum. And I can't take the forum so seriously that I'm overly concerned. It's a little Internet forum, for heaven's sake, not the United Nations.

[Harry]

Please. Noble as all these sentiments undoubtedly are, you are all overlooking the fact that Mr. Poju has insisted on referring to those who do not share his peculiar tastes as "brainwashed" and incapable of experiencing music with the fine degree of "sophistication" that only the "free-thinking" Poju brings to the table. He has also insisted on hijacking threads, such as the recent Bruckner/Mahler discussion, to turn them into referenda on the music of Edward Elgar. Had he not insisted at every turn on being provoking, had he simply stated he thinks Elgar's music is underrated and why, he could have made a better life for himself on this forum. But if someone is going to start calling experienced listeners "brainwashed" and the like, and will not desist despite all attempts to reason with him, he can't be too surprised if others fight back.

He is just a bad fighter with words that's all. Give him the room he needs, and leave him be....
That way nothing much will happen to the threads he brakes into.
And you will feel no less for it...
Poju gets overheated quickly, if it concerns Elgar, true, but don't be provoked by it, that is all I ask, and if you want to beat someone for Poju trespasses, you can use me....

[Mark]

Uh... aren't most if not all his attacks on the "brainwashed" people discussing music on non-Elgar threads also unprovoked?

Yes, they are. And Poju should stop these, too.

[Mark]

Well, I don't know what "other" threads you're talking about. I can't read everything on this forum. And I can't take the forum so seriously that I'm overly concerned. It's a little Internet forum, for heaven's sake, not the United Nations.

Ah, well, y'see, I have no life.

[Kullervo]

Amazing works by Elgar that would be hard for many fans of romantic music to dislike:

Serenade for string orchestra, Op.20 (revised version of Three Pieces for string orchestra, 1888-92)
Variations on an Original Theme (Enigma) for orchestra, Op.36 (1899)
Sea Pictures, Song cycle for contralto and orchestra, Op.37 (1897-99)
Cockaigne (In London Town), Overture for orchestra, Op.40 (1900-01)
In the South (Alassio), Concert Overture for orchestra, Op.50 (1903-04)
Introduction and Allegro for string quartet and string orchestra, Op.47 (1904-05)
Falstaff, Symphonic Study for orchestra, Op.68 (1913)
Sospiri for string orchestra and harp, Op.70 (1914)
Sonata for violin and piano, Op.82 (1918)
String Quartet in E minor, Op.83 (1918)
Piano Quintet in A minor, Op.84 (1918-19)
Concerto for cello and orchestra in E minor, Op.85 (1918-19)

Other works which many people like, but more find less good:

The Dream of Gerontius, Oratorio for soloists, chorus and orchestra, Op.38 (1899-1900)
Pomp and Circumstance, Marches No.1-6 for orchestra, Op.39 (1901-1930; sketches, elaborated by Anthony Payne 2005-06)
Symphony No.1 in A flat for orchestra, Op.55 (1907-08)
Concerto for violin and orchestra in B minor, Op.61 (1909-10)
Symphony No.2 in E flat for orchestra, Op.63 (1909-11)
Symphony No 3 for orchestra, Op.88 (sketches, 1932-34, elaborated by Anthony Payne 1972-97)

There are many omissions which many would say are worth appearing in the second section. Pissing all over the composer at (literaly) every mention of his name has caused me to lose some respect for some people on this forum. Not that I think that it will actually "dent" his reputation - it's just a forum - but it demonstrates a negative and slightly vindictive attitude. Some of the comments also downright insult anybody who likes Elgar, out of misplaced zeal for attacking Poju in ever more crude ways.

Excellent post!

[Harry]

Yes, they are. And Poju should stop these, too.

Let him provoke, be be not provoked....

[Lethevich]

Lighten up, y'all. Poju gives as good as he gets. None of this so-called "Elgar-bashing" has been about Elgar per se, and some of us have taken considerable pains to offer a balanced rather than exaggerated view of this composer's strengths and weaknesses.

Please. Noble as all these sentiments undoubtedly are, you are all overlooking the fact that Mr. Poju has insisted on referring to those who do not share his peculiar tastes as "brainwashed" and incapable of experiencing music with the fine degree of "sophistication" that only the "free-thinking" Poju brings to the table. He has also insisted on hijacking threads, such as the recent Bruckner/Mahler discussion, to turn them into referenda on the music of Edward Elgar. Had he not insisted at every turn on being provoking, had he simply stated he thinks Elgar's music is underrated and why, he could have made a better life for himself on this forum. But if someone is going to start calling experienced listeners "brainwashed" and the like, and will not desist despite all attempts to reason with him, he can't be too surprised if others fight back.

You're right, but it does hinder anybody elses ability to discuss him without each good post being seperated by sniping It's obvious that he's not going to change his opinion, no matter how many people try to engage with him. I think that people have realised this, as serious attempts have turned into what looks to me like an almost knee-jerk response by some people to make unhelpful and negative posts any time Elgar is mentioned, and I can't see that there will ever be an end to them unless people realise that it's not good to continue in this way: they've made their point (that they consider Poju's opinions wrong, and that they dislike his attitude), but continuing to post in the way they currently are is just hurting everybody else from talking about Elgar WITHOUT overrating him...

It's strange that I have a problem with this, as Elgar probably isn't among my top 25 composers, but am quite aware that it has become difficult for anybody to discuss him, and don't want him to be spoilt by one person, and an OTT reaction to them. I don't get annoyed at things he says that I don't agree with (eg. my love of Haydn, vs. his constant claims of the music being too simple) - I find them fun in some ways, and hope that people who cannot be amused can simply ignore him

[Harry]

You're right, but it does hinder anybody elses ability to discuss him without each good post being seperated by sniping It's obvious that he's not going to change his opinion, no matter how many people try to engage with him. I think that people have realised this, as serious attempts have turned into what looks to me like an almost knee-jerk response by some people to make unhelpful and negative posts any time Elgar is mentioned, and I can't see that there will ever be an end to them unless people realise that it's not good to continue in this way: they've made their point (that they consider Poju's opinions wrong, and that they dislike his attitude), but continuing to post in the way they currently are is just hurting everybody else from talking about Elgar WITHOUT overrating him...

It's strange that I have a problem with this, as Elgar probably isn't among my top 25 composers, but am quite aware that it has become difficult for anybody to discuss him, and don't want him to be spoilt by one person, and an OTT reaction to them. I don't get annoyed at things he says that I don't agree with (eg. my love of Haydn, vs. his constant claims of the music being too simple) - I find them fun in some ways, and hope that people who cannot be amused can simply ignore him

You can be my lawyer my friend, your arguing is sound....

[Mark]

I think that people have realised this, as serious attempts have turned into what looks to me like an almost knee-jerk response by some people to make unhelpful and negative posts any time Elgar is mentioned, and I can't see that there will ever be an end to them unless people realise that it's not good to continue in this way: they've made their point (that they consider Poju's opinions wrong, and that they dislike his attitude), but continuing to post in the way they currently are is just hurting everybody else from talking about Elgar WITHOUT overrating him...

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

[karlhenning]

About that we should be mild with Poju! But taste is very personal, so I leave Poju the room for that.

Harry, you are a little disingenuous here.  There is no one, not a man jack of us, but would gladly allow Poju perfect freedom to like what music soever.

Everyone knows there are other aspects to Poju's spam, so I won't recapitulate them here.

Also, you seemed to think that Herzog's post about the Smoking Cantata was "Elgar-bashing";  imagining slights where there are none is no virtue.

[Kullervo]

Also, you seemed to think that Herzog's post about the Smoking Cantata was "Elgar-bashing";  imagining slights where there are none is no virtue.

That was a slight. His sense of humor tends to mockery, so he mentions the Smoking Cantata as if to say, "as if I would ever listen to THAT!"

[longears]

Please. Noble as all these sentiments undoubtedly are, you are all overlooking the fact that Mr. Poju has insisted on referring to those who do not share his peculiar tastes as "brainwashed" and incapable of experiencing music with the fine degree of "sophistication" that only the "free-thinking" Poju brings to the table. He has also insisted on hijacking threads, such as the recent Bruckner/Mahler discussion, to turn them into referenda on the music of Edward Elgar. Had he not insisted at every turn on being provoking, had he simply stated he thinks Elgar's music is underrated and why, he could have made a better life for himself on this forum. But if someone is going to start calling experienced listeners "brainwashed" and the like, and will not desist despite all attempts to reason with him, he can't be too surprised if others fight back.

What he said!  The instigator is Poju.  For nearly two years others have been very patient with him.  His inability to learn and to modify the offensive cast of his comments has long suggested an organic disorder.  Asbergers Syndrome seems a likely candidate.  Perhaps a little more compassion would not be misplaced.

[Lethevich]

His inability to learn and to modify the offensive cast of his comments has long suggested an organic disorder.  Asbergers Syndrome seems a likely candidate.  Perhaps a little more compassion would not be misplaced.

If it's an actual disorder, it must be more serious than AS, as I am fine despite that (Or so I would like to think.)

[karlhenning]

That was a slight. His sense of humor tends to mockery, so he mentions the Smoking Cantata as if to say, "as if I would ever listen to THAT!"

With respect, friends, that is not how I read it.  His query was a joke, to be sure;  but I don't think that even the element of mockery in that joke is carrying quite that baggage.

Gosh, I have even been known to joke about Stravinsky ere now.

If it's an actual disorder, it must be more serious than AS, as I am fine despite that (Or so I would like to think.)

I'll vouch for your character, Lethe  0:)