Is Mozart Greater Than Wagner in Opera ?

[Operahaven]

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[Gurn Blanston]

I can only tell you how I feel, probably not the same as "other GMG'rs". I think Mozart's operas are unsurpassed. Also, I don't think it is a real competition, since Wagner claimed not to be writing opera. But all the ones you name are pretty much Late Romantics. So let's say fairly that you prefer Late Romantic opera to Classical. As far as Classical opera goes, Mozart is King.



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Now playing:
Cherubini Symphony - Zurich CO / Griffiths - Cherubini Symphony in D 1815 2nd mvmt

[71 dB]

Absolutely not.

[uffeviking]

Wagner did not compose operas, therefor the title of your thread is irrelevant. 

[paulb]

Wagner did not compose operas, therefor the title of your thread is irrelevant. 

interesting perspective, and know you from previous postings you are knowledgable in this genre.
I'm at the moment explosring Wagner's operas, well the only three I like.
One of the 3 is  the Ring ,2 recordings from 52, and one from 53. Gonna take some months to work through the Ring.
Parsifal was wonderful, never knew "part" (humbly confess) of my life was cast in an old legend that captivated generations for centuries in all sorts of variations.

Wagner to be of interest, one needs to know and appreciate myth, legends and history. My interest is a  psychological sense. There's deep ideas going on here and I mean to know what they are. Thus the music which may appear to others with little interest other than just the music, may find sections of the Ring and Parsifal a bit wearing on the patience. Whereas for me, the 12 cd Ring is all good, ner a  dull moment. Its all about how one interacts with the meanings of any muisc which determines the values we attach to the music/opera.

Now as for Mozart. if you are not experiencing Mozart's operas from the recordings years 1949 (Furtwangler;s 1st recording) through say 1961, then you are not hearing the glories of Mozart's operas. IOW you are missing out on Mozart's true genius for spectacular beauty and stunning thrills. Nothing like Mozart in the entire operatic genre, thansk to the artists of the Fabulous 50's. and Liz Schwarzkopf and Furtwangler and of course Karl Bohm.

Not to say there are some recordings in later yrs to be heard,  but definetly NOT TO BE MISSED  recordings of the 50's.

Wagner, the first modern, Debussy being handed  the torch from the hand of  Wagner.
Mozart, stands unique like no other composer.
Neither can be compared against each other, but both are represenative of high genius in the CM genre.

[BachQ]

But let's stay focused on the topic.....   

Hey ...... we want to discuss Norse Mythology .........

[paulb]

Hi Paul,

I could not disagree more with this statement.

In no way does one have to appreciate the 'literary side' of Wagner - librettos or myths - to be absolutely spellbound by his art... 

But let's stay focused on the topic.....   

Hi Operahaven
Well if thats not good nuf
try this one.
IF there were not the few recordings I found acceptable in Wagner's only 3 great operas, Its doubtful I;'d have such a  high opinion as i do.
IOW Wagner only works for me due to the greatness of the artists. Its not the most exciting music you know, only in parts. I'm enthralled  more by the incredible artists on the 3 Rings, more so that "his art".
Hows dem cookies?

[Dancing Divertimentian]

What are we to do if we enjoy both?

This "poll" effectively ties our hands.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Is it possible for people posting to this forum to devise questions that would encourage some degree of valid musical insight?

[paulb]

What are we to do if we enjoy both?

This "poll" effectively ties our hands.

Should not exclude, but i suspect there are more faithful to one, and some fans the other composer. Both composers material is quite different in approach and structure, can't argue one over the other.
Notice the poll says "Wagner's mature operas surpass"
I can see reason there, i really only apprecaite 3 of Wagners operas, Not sure if 2 are from his late phase, Tristan and Parsifal. And of course the Ring, which I listening to next several weeks.
Whereas I love all Mozart's operas, all offer great rewards.  But then again if we look at volume of output,  the Ring is like 4 operas, so in terms of output both are well proven  in the operatic form.

[M forever]

In all of my discussions with opera lovers over the years it has been implied that I was 'lacking in aesthetic perception' for claiming that Wagner was the infinitely greater opera composer.

You are not lacking in "aesthetic perception". You are lacking in "basic intelligence" for making such silly statements. You can like and dislike whatever you want, why does it always have to be "the greatest" or why does this has to be "greater" than that? This comparison is just total nonsense.

Folks, I have tried, really tried with Mozart but I just can't get excited about his operas. At times I am truly mystified at why his works are considered the summit of operatic achievement....

So what? Maybe you will "get" them later. Maybe never. Who cares? Are you the measure of all things? What you don't "get" can't be "great"? I don't "get" a lot of stuff either. Yet somehow, I don't feel the need to declare what I don't "get" can't be as "great" as what I do "get".

[BachQ]

Is it possible for people posting to this forum to devise questions that would encourage some degree of valid musical insight?

Do you really expect people to take this thread seriously?

[Brian]

Are Oranges Greater Than Apples? 

[(poco) Sforzando]

the Ring is like 4 operas

It's not just "like 4 operas," the Ring is 4 operas. (And yes, I mean "operas.") You go to the opera house on four separate nights to hear each of the four operas from the Ring Cycle. If you like you can call the Ring Cycle a tetralogy, or if you prefer you can call it a trilogy with a prologue. Either way, it's four operas.

[M forever]

Are Oranges Greater Than Apples? 

Yes.

[paulb]

It's not just "like 4 operas," the Ring is 4 operas. (And yes, I mean "operas.") You go to the opera house on four separate nights to hear each of the four operas from the Ring Cycle. If you like you can call the Ring Cycle a tetralogy, or if you prefer you can call it a trilogy with a prologue. Either way, it's four operas.

thanks for the clarification. I'm new to Wagner and much reading to do.
I'm gald to know this info, as I explore the Ring the next few weeks.
I have 1 Rings from the year 1952 and 2 from 1953.
All 3 real gems in all respects.

No reason to compare. But when we consider the operatic literatue, Mozart and Wagner stand at the very pinnacle of greatest in this genre.
Whose to argue that point.
Oh go ahead and bring up old Verdi if you wish, supreme dulls-ville.

[Bonehelm]

How the hell can you compare them? It's just like saying, "Is Beethoven a greater counterpoint writer than Bach?"

Stupid competition threads. Just stop these, they just provoke flame wars. If you like Wagner you listen to him if you like Mozart you listen to him. It's that simple, people.

[Sarastro]

Is it possible for people posting to this forum to devise questions that would encourage some degree of valid musical insight?

Maybe it is, though I'm not a musician and cannot say everything I think in English. I don't understand why you didn't like my reply about beef-stakes, they are GREAT! 
The question - what's greater...but it is obviously ridiculous, asking what's greater - Mozart or Wagner, Da Vinci or Micelangelo, isn't it?
Wagner, of course, did his own world of music, using his own language, system of symbols, keynotes, making  great libretti twisted with the music canvas. So what's that? It's more like thinking, noting all those signs...it's great, especially when you know all this, you'll enjoy.
Mozart didn't get much into such a complications, though some of his operatic music is written for those who have "long ears", but even a beginner will gladly listen to them, understand and receive a bouquet of emotions. Of course, for me Wagner also gives a bunch of them, but the fact is that not everybody is deep in classical music and listen to it a lot. The statistics says there are 2-3 percent in the entire World...so do you expect most of the people be fond of Wagner and listen to him all free time? No. I'm not sure. And as for Mozart it doesn't matter if you are a beginner or an expert or someone else, each category of listeners will get their own. Of course you can say - Wagner can bring it too! yes, he may, but the percentage would be smaller.
Arguing about what is greater/more unique/more excellent/more exciting is a waste of a time. Go, listen to the music, enjoy it! That should be wise. Of course there are some points that are solid and undeniable, but we are human, and thing we consider to be great are just thing that we like.
And Britney Spears is greater that both Mozart and Wagner for somebody else, it's their choice and I don't blame them. It's natural.

[paulb]

How the hell can you compare them? It's just like saying, "Is Beethoven a greater counterpoint writer than Bach?"

Stupid competition threads. Just stop these, they just provoke flame wars. If you like Wagner you listen to him if you like Mozart you listen to him. It's that simple, people.

i just gave some reason to consider both in one topic. as both stand at the pinnacle of greatness in the operatic genre. No other composer comes close..
''EDIT

when I take Wagner's   3 great operas, Tristan, Parsifal, Ring cycle I arrive at 20 cds worth of high operatic art.
And taking into account Mozart's best operas, I arrive at 15 cds of pure high creativity.
No other composers come close.  So there you have it, both stand as equals, with no peers. And all these other objections  saying no method of comparison could done.
the only other opera I know that matches this high standard of excellece is Puccini's Turandot. ( I finally spelled it correctly)

[M forever]

Are Oranges Greater Than Apples? 

Yes.

But raspberries are even greater than oranges. The greatest fruit however, is the banana. I also like saying that word.

"Ba-na-na"

In German, banana is Banane. "Bah-naah-ne". That sounds even funnier.