Sonata for piano, Op. 1

[lukeottevanger]

thanks for sharing your thoughts on the first movement. I agree with the notational problems, of course, I'll clean the score before giving it somebody to play. If you look at the third movement (which should already be cleaned up), that score should be easier to read.

Yes, it is certainly better (though I think there are also some things to look at there - I haven't gone through this movement much yet, though I agree with Sforzando that I think the middle section is really very good). The second movement, I must be honest, I haven't managed to get far into, even though lots of it looks exciting - it is just too thorny to read and it lies very awkwardly under my hands, so that I don't think I can give myself too much of an impression of it without intensive practice (either I get the notes right but not the spirit and speed, or vice versa!).

Concerning the opening statement - you're right, it doesn't appear again in the way it is at the beginning. You can find it in the lowest register at the end of the first sostenuto, and the second slow part shall be an extended version of it. But only of the unisono, of course. Of the latter part, i did only use the motif in the upper voice... Honestly, I love the answering cadence, but I thought it did not fit too well being used more often because it's too obiously tonal, isn't it?

No, I don't think so. The piece itself is poised on the brink of tonality, despite its high density of dissonance. It is full of tonal gestures and implications, which lead one to hear it with a set of tonal expectations. The opening unison, indeed, is beautifully rich in suggestive, tonal potential - you have the strong fifth, the potent tritone, the triadic/diminished element - lots to draw on. What I am trying to say is that the piece operates on a kind of continuum from highly chromatic to fully atonal which, it is true, you could perhaps hone a little in places - make it part of the piece's narrative - but which is nicely done as it is. So no, you don't need to worry about the cadence part of the motive being too tonal (I don't think it is anyway). Also, if you don't want to use it elsewhere, it might be better to excise it altogether - and I don't think you should. One of my favourite bits of this movement, actually, is the music following the cadence. This music audibly links to the cadence which has just preceded it, and the effect, to my ears, is that we move from the epigrammatic idealised world of the motive into 'the real world' of struggle and strife. I think this is very effective and suggests the beginning of a narrative for the movement which isn't quite sustained - as Sforzando said (I think), the movement could possibly do with some pruning to make it tighter and to make that narrative clearer.

I'll add warning accidentals as soon as possible. On 3), yeah, I dunno why Finale keeps doing that. There must be a possibility to turn it off, I'll try to find out.

Excellent!

Concerning 4) - I promise I will go through the whole sonata on the piano again and check every passage whether it's (well) playable or not. Expression marks are also things I like to add when cleaning up the score

Yes, I saw some very suggestive ones in the central section of your last movement - they give a clear idea of your intentions, and as they are quite extreme, it might be worth underscoring them with some even more outré piano writing (this section reminds me both of the gorgeous and revolutionary free-wheeling piano writing in Liszt's early Apparitions  - do you know them; I think you would recognise much to admire in them? - and also, in the ironic(?) use of twisted, mangled tonal gesture, of certain sections of the Berg Violin Concerto).

Re. the difficulty - the first movement is a struggle and could do with simplfying; the third movement is more managable but is basically a similar story. But the second movement is, at times, as-good-as-impossible. Some judicious pruning, prioritising and reassignment of notes would help a great deal.

Again thanks a lot for the helpful and detailed remarks - I'll think over the opening statement and what to do with it.

A pleasure. 

[rappy]

Wow, thanks greg, that's very pleasing. The link to the first movement is fixed now... forgot to change the file name when I re-uploaded it.
As to your questions, I'm not studying sonatas "on purpose", but I listen to many and while I'm most familiar with 18th and 19th century music, Prokofiev is my favourite composer of the 20th and certainly a role model for me Indeed, his sonatas are just awesome!

that's where I got a lot of my ideas- it seems like you're doing something similar maybe, but way better.

I would say thinks like that! Did you share your sonata? Can we listen to it?
I think I improved by listening to classic music a lot, reading books (about orchestration, form, harmony, etc.) and - of course - composing a lot - I don't think I have any secrets Maybe the secret is listening to what certain people on this forum tell you!

I just see that Luke wrote a long reply again, I'll respond to it later when I've got time - dudes, I could write so much more if my English was just a little bit better... 

[lukeottevanger]

Your English is just fine! Puts my German to shame, at any rate 

[(poco) Sforzando]

I could write so much more if my English was just a little bit better... 

Dude, dein Englisch ist ausgezeichnet.

[greg]

I would say thinks like that! Did you share your sonata? Can we listen to it?

the link is on the first page of my thread, actually this one:
http://www.mediafire.com/?3nvg1zmq50d

it's called "Lighthouse of Black Light"...... feels like forever ago when i wrote it, though.....


just heard the first movement of this sonata 

[(poco) Sforzando]

In truth, Rappy, I burned a CD for myself (also with Joshua's Rufinatascha symphony) and went through the whole thing again just as a listener. And I have a radical suggestion: scrap your relatively weak third movement and substitute an extended Adagio. Hearing this again from a larger perspective, I think it's got a lot of very impressive things but it all sounds so darned hyperactive. It's missing the contrast of repose, and I think building a monumental slow structure would be both a good technical challenge for you as well as a very effective way of rounding out the sonata as a musical experience.

[lukeottevanger]

... and I think building a monumental slow structure would be be a good technical challenge for you as well as a very effective way of rounding out the sonata as a musical experience....

I think there's something to this - now I think of it, the impression your music in general has left on me is of lots of activity, lots of speed and relatively little repose. It's slightly as if you are really worried to keep things moving, keep the scene shifting, but the effect is slightly over-nervous, perhaps. The irony is that I think your slow music is really among your most effective, and I'd like to hear more of it.

[greg]

Just listened to it again, without the score.

And I have a radical suggestion: scrap your relatively weak third movement and substitute an extended Adagio.

DON'T scrap the third movement! "Weak"? 
But DO write an Adagio at the end. That would be perfect. Three fast movements and then a long, slow, Adagio..... (and long, i think 10 minutes would be the shortest amount of time)

a couple more thoughts:
-much of this sounds faster than what would be possible to play! But at the same time, it would sound best played as fast as possible......
-between the 1st and 2nd sections in the 3rd movement, there's a free time section where it just doesn't sound right forte. In my opinion, it'd sound better played Rubato and pianissimo.
-at the end of the 3rd movement, the last chords just aren't really satisfactory to conclude the whole sonata like that. But it'd work if an Adagio followed it. 

[(poco) Sforzando]

Just listened to it again, without the score.
DON'T scrap the third movement! "Weak"? 

I would say the faster sections of this movement are the weakest part of the composition. There is enough active music in the piece otherwise. This material can always be used elsewhere if the composer wants to preserve it.

[greg]

I would say the faster sections of this movement are the weakest part of the composition. There is enough active music in the piece otherwise. This material can always be used elsewhere if the composer wants to preserve it.

I suppose......
either used somewhere else or add an Adagio as a 4th movement, either way is alright....

[lukeottevanger]

I suppose......
either used somewhere else or add an Adagio as a 4th movement, either way is alright....

I'm not sure, though, Greg - it's a matter of proportioning the thing right, and I think Sforzando's suggestion has a lot to it. Personally, I think a somewhat trimmed first movement with a clear narrative line, a simplified but still eclectic second movement and a last movement focusing on the material  which is presently its central portion would be very striking, more so than the work as it stands. Another movement -especially more fast material - not really necessary, I feel.

[GilFray]

Dear Ralph: This is an impressive Opus 1 sonata! The ambition in it reminds not only of early Prokofiev sonatas, but of the Berg Opus One as well. I don't have much to add that other folks have stated constructively as far as possible items to consider. Certainly some of the notational niceties could be addressed. My concerns regard ways of managing the seemingly unrelieved density in the the progress of the first movement. Some of it could be due to a lack of voicing in the playback,  although generally impressive, still is not as refined as a "live'"player could present. Maybe more liberal use of dynamics in defining the lines could help in this regard. While this could be seen as limiting different interpretations of your music, by clarifying your intent a bit further you could have more variety and sharpen the sense of direction in doing so. A further textural aspect you could consider is to have less note against note motion in some passages, maybe simplifying through using augmentation of motives in lower or middle voices, then allowing the more frenetic note against note activity point up a climax more forcefully. In the second movement i wondered if the ostinato could have outlined the motive more rather than sticking to the B - not exactly asking for modulation, but giving some shape on a larger scale. Possibly there is some referencing to the second movement of Schoenberg's {sorry that my keyboard resists umlauts here}  Opus 11? Finally, in the third movement, there was a  spot where the momentum stops altogether on an  E in the right hand. Would an embellishment such as an appoggitura using the preceding motivic material help maintain some of the forward motion in the transition into the next section? i don't know whether these suggestions are especially helpful,  but given the general technical potential of your work, i thought i would propose them. The stretto at the end of your finale was splendidly ferocious - Hindemith or any other contrapuntally-minded composer would be happy with it. Good luck - gil fray.

[lukeottevanger]

Great advice here, Ralph. Don't want to single any of it out, but this bit:

My concerns regard ways of managing the seemingly unrelieved density in the the progress of the first movement....Maybe more liberal use of dynamics in defining the lines could help in this regard.

and this bit:

A further textural aspect you could consider is to have less note against note motion in some passages, maybe simplifying through using augmentation of motives in lower or middle voices, then allowing the more frenetic note against note activity point up a climax more forcefully.

struck me particularly, their general theme concerning the gradation of textural density both from A to B and within a texture.

[rappy]

Hi,

thanks for the many replies, I read them all, although I was quite busy the last days and had no time to answer.
The thing about the movements is that I wrote the last movement first as a stand alone piece. Then someone (not only someone, even a professional pianist and composer) came up with the idea that I should write a whole sonata and use it as the final movement. Well, I liked the idea and tried to do it. I didn't notice the problem of too much activity yet, since I wrote slow parts in every movement. Keep in mind that no pianist will play the outer movements as quick as the PC does. A good human player can play it much slower and still show the musical lines successfully. But ok, I will think over it.
GilFray, thanks for sharing your helpful thoughts, you're certainly right that the PC playback doesn't make much sense very often and a human player could present it in a better way. Do you think of some specific passage where you would use augmentations in the middle voices?
Referencing to Schönberg would be a coincidence, because I don't know Op. 11 (yet)  Should listen to it.

@greg: I listened to some of your works and I found some very good stuff, though I hate the midi sound... are you going to become a professional composer? And what style are you heading for currently?

Your English is just fine! Puts my German to shame, at any rate

If you knew how long it takes me to write a reply which is not even half as long as yours! 
But forums like this one helped me a lot to improve my English. Honestly, don't care about your German, German is such a difficult language, if I was English I would never want learn it.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Ralph,

The point is not to tell you what you should do - that is entirely your decision, of course - but just to suggest options that might open up other ways of looking at this. Obviously some of the options would require much more work than others. But what's the rush, really? There's nothing wrong with letting a piece gestate over a few years. You just have to decide what works best for you.

[greg]

@greg: I listened to some of your works and I found some very good stuff, though I hate the midi sound... are you going to become a professional composer? And what style are you heading for currently?

cool, thanks for listening. I'd say my style varies from piece to piece. Right now, I'm working on a late Romantic idiom, though I always have in mind different stuff- always thought it'd be fun to write a Baroque-style piece, then a serial work, then something that's just totally original-sounding just for the sake of being different. 

Referencing to Schönberg would be a coincidence, because I don't know Op. 11 (yet)  Should listen to it.

I never thought too highly of his solo piano music...... it's okay, just not GREAT. Same with op.11..... the only absolutely great solo piano work by Schoenberg I think is the Piano Suite, when performed by Glenn Gould. He brings out the soul! 

[GilFray]

Dear Rappy; In the first movement exposition  i think you manage the counterpoint well toward the beginning around measures 16 to 25. The place where the motoric sixteenth -note activation of the texture does not convince me as the primary means of propulsion for your argument happens in the transitional  presto from about mm. 40 - 59. Maybe in this area and in the corresponding passage later you may consider referencing some of the control shown in the writing in the earlier passage. Again I would like to emphasize that you show powerful potential in this sonata. -gil fray.

[rappy]

Hi,

I've now finished another slow movement (as you suggested) which I will put between the first and the old 2nd movement.

http://www.dgsp-rheinland-pfalz.de/klaviersonate2satz.pdf

I don't upload a MP3 because the PC can't play it properly. It's easy to play though, so you can print it out and play yourself.

Meanwhile, here is the result of my sketches on a "symphony for kids". I compose this for fun and to learn orchestration.

http://www.dgsp-rheinland-pfalz.de/sinfonie1satz.mp3

It's the exposition and the beginning of the development.

[Joe_Campbell]

Hi rappy,

Would you be able to elaborate on this movement? I'm curious as to its inspiration and development. What compositional methods did you use?

[Guido]

Cheers Rappy... Maybe someone else will record it for you? I really enjoyed listening to your piece last time (and my pianistic skills won't stretch to giving anywhere like a recorgnisable rendition of this new movement!)