Dvorak's Den

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Anything played by Josef Suk will be amazing - the older Supraphon recording is just a tad harsh though I find.....

That would be an interesting one to find on LP (to see if it sounds any better on vinyl) as it's from 1979.  When I looked on e-Bay, I did notice that it was a co-production with Nippon Columbia and is a quadrophonic recording.

I'm not so keen on "stormy"!

This Smetana Trio performance has Jan Palenicek on the cello. I remembered that I was very keen on his father Josef Palenicek playing Janacek piano pieces so I decided to download a non commercial transfer of him playing the Dvorak F minor trio with Alexander Plocek and Milos Sadlo. It is excellent! Not at all blustery. I can share the download by PM.

Bet that that is a neat one Mandryka!  Love the "The Shield of Quality" and the lion on the cover! 

PD

[Mandryka]

Can I also ask about recordings of symphony 3? The first movement has caught my imagination (listening to Kertesz.)

[Cato]

Can I also ask about recordings of symphony 3? The first movement has caught my imagination (listening to Kertesz.)

Many years ago, Sarge recommended the Witold Rowicki set and his praise was on target:

[DavidW]

The other one I like is Suitner.

[Mandryka]

I have to say, I think the op 65 trio is one of the top tier late c19 ones - as satisfying in its way as any by Brahms and Schumann

[kyjo]

I have to say, I think the op 65 trio is one of the top tier late c19 ones - as satisfying in its way as any by Brahms and Schumann

Absolutely! It's a masterpiece through and through. In its darkly impassioned character, it's the chamber "equivalent" of his 7th Symphony. Even so, it's not devoid of those endearing folksy touches that make it so unmistakably Dvorak.

[Luke]

That would be an interesting one to find on LP (to see if it sounds any better on vinyl) as it's from 1979.  When I looked on e-Bay, I did notice that it was a co-production with Nippon Columbia and is a quadrophonic recording.

I actually have that one on vinyl, but unfortunately it's in storage and I can't easily get my hands on it at the moment.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I actually have that one on vinyl, but unfortunately it's in storage and I can't easily get my hands on it at the moment.

Hopefully in some place that is dry (but not hot) and not humid. 

PD

[Mandryka]

This is streaming everywhere but it's hard to find. Search under the name of the violinist Ilya Kaler. It is worth finding - patrician performance of op 65 I'd say, and for me rather satisfying.

[Madiel]

I've spent a couple of hours today at the National Library nerding out over Burghauser's thematic catalogue of Dvorak works, published in 1960. I know there's a later revised edition but my country chose to collect the original. 

A similar exercise to one I've done with Sibelius, trying to come to grips with the opus numbers and how the hell they ended up as they are. Dvorak was rather more conscientious with opus numbers, but he still made some changes of his own as well as trying to adapt to what his publisher Simrock was up to. There's complications like when he tries to take account of the early works he destroyed, or thought he had (the 1st symphony is the most prominent example of the latter).

By no means have I processed all of the things that I furiously scribbled notes about (I photocopied one small section but the catalogue runs to hundreds of pages with all of the information it has). But let me pick one of the easier examples that I knew a little about but not the whole story. It's actually the last time the catalogue gets snarled.

Dvorak intended the concert overtures In Nature's Realm, Carnival and Othello to be a single opus. They're related works sharing thematic material (something that treating them separately really tends to obscure).

So on his manuscripts he had:

The 3 overtures as op.91
Rondo for cello and piano/orchestra as op.92
Te Deum as op.93
The American Flag as op.94
Then opuses 95, 96 and 97 as we know them.

But then Simrock publishes the overtures as opuses 91, 92 and 93. So Dvorak starts renumbering. There's actually a note from him about the Te Deum, saying "Simrock has used no.93 for Othello so if this gets published it'll have to renumbered".

The rondo for cello becomes op.94 (where it stays), Te Deum becomes op.98 and The American Flag becomes op.99. Probably around this time, the manuscript of the American Suite is op.101, not 98, and the Biblical Songs don't seem to have an opus number yet.

By the time that Te Deum and The American Flag get published, though, they're made opuses 103 and 102 to get out of the way of other things. The American Suite had become op.98, presumably because when it got published it wasn't clear the choral works were going to come out.

I know some people wouldn't care about this stuff, but I like knowing where works sit within a composer's overall body of work and what was going on in their life. Understanding things like the period where Simrock acquired a whole bunch of earlier works and published them with new opuses numbers against Dvorak's wishes. Or finding out that Dvorak's list of works he'd destroyed dates from the same time when he became really interested in revising and improving old compositions.

[Roasted Swan]

I've spent a couple of hours today at the National Library nerding out over Burghauser's thematic catalogue of Dvorak works, published in 1960. I know there's a later revised edition but my country chose to collect the original. 

A similar exercise to one I've done with Sibelius, trying to come to grips with the opus numbers and how the hell they ended up as they are. Dvorak was rather more conscientious with opus numbers, but he still made some changes of his own as well as trying to adapt to what his publisher Simrock was up to. There's complications like when he tries to take account of the early works he destroyed, or thought he had (the 1st symphony is the most prominent example of the latter).

By no means have I processed all of the things that I furiously scribbled notes about (I photocopied one small section but the catalogue runs to hundreds of pages with all of the information it has). But let me pick one of the easier examples that I knew a little about but not the whole story. It's actually the last time the catalogue gets snarled.

Dvorak intended the concert overtures In Nature's Realm, Carnival and Othello to be a single opus. They're related works sharing thematic material (something that treating them separately really tends to obscure).

So on his manuscripts he had:

The 3 overtures as op.91
Rondo for cello and piano/orchestra as op.92
Te Deum as op.93
The American Flag as op.94
Then opuses 95, 96 and 97 as we know them.

But then Simrock publishes the overtures as opuses 91, 92 and 93. So Dvorak starts renumbering. There's actually a note from him about the Te Deum, saying "Simrock has used no.93 for Othello so if this gets published it'll have to renumbered".

The rondo for cello becomes op.94 (where it stays), Te Deum becomes op.98 and The American Flag becomes op.99. Probably around this time, the manuscript of the American Suite is op.101, not 98, and the Biblical Songs don't seem to have an opus number yet.

By the time that Te Deum and The American Flag get published, though, they're made opuses 103 and 102 to get out of the way of other things. The American Suite had become op.98, presumably because when it got published it wasn't clear the choral works were going to come out.

I know some people wouldn't care about this stuff, but I like knowing where works sit within a composer's overall body of work and what was going on in their life. Understanding things like the period where Simrock acquired a whole bunch of earlier works and published them with new opuses numbers against Dvorak's wishes. Or finding out that Dvorak's list of works he'd destroyed dates from the same time when he became really interested in revising and improving old compositions.

I'm with you on this.  I knew a little of what you have written about but nothing like the amount "shuffling the pack" that Dvorak and Simrock did! 

A good critical catalogue is a treasure trove of information and context - not just in terms of the "when" but also the where, for whom, why etc...

[Madiel]

A good critical catalogue is a treasure trove of information and context - not just in terms of the "when" but also the where, for whom, why etc...

Yes, I've bought the catalogue for Holmboe which, while relatively modest, has got nice information about first performances and other things that help build a picture of the musicians that he was working with. Burghauser's work on Dvorak has a huge amount of information about performances and publications and where manuscripts are kept. But it looks to me like copies of it cost a couple of hundred dollars so I doubt I'll be getting it for home consumption.

[Madiel]

Okay, I'm not going to say absolutely everything... but writing this out helps my own brain. It seems that some of the intermediate stages include:

1. An early list where Dvorak includes most of what he'd written from the String Quintet no.1 (B.7, listed as op.1) all the way to the string quartet no.5 (B.37, apparently listed as op.23 when it's now usually called op.9)

2. Dvorak getting more critical, starting with the overtures for his first 2 operas, cutting out earlier stuff and then also the string of things he destroyed, string quartet no.5 is now op.9, string quartet no.6 is op.12 and he carries on from there.

3. Somewhat messy publishing from around op.27 to op.41, where some numbers get used more than once even in publication (in part because at this stage Dvorak is using multiple publishers), and some things shuffle between the manuscript and the published version dealing with holes.

4. Dvorak sketching out several lists in the late 1880s and into the 1890s where he's trying to take into account things that have been published and working out what can fit into the numbers that haven't been used yet. In one list he can use opuses 1 and 2 for the first string quintet and string quartet, but then later on "op.2" has been used for some songs revised from Cypresses and he hasn't got room for both chamber pieces any more and is undecided which to pick. But still later he seems to have said what the hell, and said op.1 and 2 are the chamber pieces and ignores/forgets the published songs.

The other gaps available in the opus numbers, that flip around in these lists Dvorak wrote for himself, are 10, 13, 14, 18, 19, 24 and 27. So he's thinking about how to fill them. He's already filled 12 and 15 with much later works, possibly to avoid giving them to Simrock.

-----

There are a lot fewer oddities from op.42 onwards. There's a weird little bit where everybody wants to be op.53 or 54 (maybe because there are 2 versions of the violin concerto), there are kind of 2 different op.56 for piano because Dvorak wasn't happy with the first set (until today I didn't realise the two sets share one piece which gets revised), the Stabat Mater ends up at op.58 after the big mess around the 27-41 range, and the 6th symphony moves from 58 to 60 to accommodate it.

Opuses 76 to 80 are earlier works, mostly thanks to Simrock stuffing around, which forces the Mass to move from 76 to 86 and the Piano Quintet no.2 move from 77 to 81. After that, Simrock splits op.91 and then everybody has a good lie down.

[Madiel]

I'm determined to fill some gaps. Any recommendations for the piano concerto?

Preferably more modern ones, both for sonic reasons and because these days people play the piano part that Dvorak actually wrote. Apparently it's about the mid-70s that the trend reversed.

[Roasted Swan]

I'm determined to fill some gaps. Any recommendations for the piano concerto?

Preferably more modern ones, both for sonic reasons and because these days people play the piano part that Dvorak actually wrote. Apparently it's about the mid-70s that the trend reversed.

I really enjoy this version



Jitka Cechova is excellent and a specialist in this repertoire and Smetana.  She is of course the pianist in the Smetana Piano Trio - the other two players offer the other two Dvorak Concerti - although of course you might not want those works as well!

The Jeno Jando/Naxos version is good (from memory ) and I assume he does the complete/unedited version but I don't know for sure.



A further titbit - which I'm guessing you know but others might not - the Editio Suprphon Critical edition of the score is interesting/unusual in that it prints both the original and edited solo piano parts.  As a complete non-pianist I have no idea about the truth behind the narrative that the original part in "un-pianistic".  Perhaps someone with greater practical knowledge on the forum could illuminate this......

[Madiel]

I really enjoy this version



Jitka Cechova is excellent and a specialist in this repertoire and Smetana.  She is of course the pianist in the Smetana Piano Trio - the other two players offer the other two Dvorak Concerti - although of course you might not want those works as well!

The Jeno Jando/Naxos version is good (from memory ) and I assume he does the complete/unedited version but I don't know for sure.

Thanks. I've seen some positive mentions of the Jando/Wit. That's the first mention I've seen of the other one. I do need a Violin Concerto as well, it's only just hitting me that they're sometimes paired together.

[Florestan]

An impressive line up on this one. Actually, I'm going to listen to it right now.

[Madiel]

An impressive line up on this one. Actually, I'm going to listen to it right now.

I've seen several indications that the violin concerto performance is great and the piano concerto is not. Including on this very forum many, many years ago.

[Florestan]

I've seen several indications that the violin concerto performance is great and the piano concerto is not. Including on this very forum many, many years ago.

Listened only to the PC and can confirm that at least the 1st movement is a dud. Heck, it's marked Allegro agitato but in this rendition it's more like Andante placido. Same problem with the finale: overall, much too slow and uninvolved for an Allegro con fuoco. The 2nd movement is nicely done, though. But truth be told, this PC is not one of Dvorak's best efforts so maybe it doesn't inspire too much fire and passion from the pianist.

[Brian]

Thanks. I've seen some positive mentions of the Jando/Wit. That's the first mention I've seen of the other one. I do need a Violin Concerto as well, it's only just hitting me that they're sometimes paired together.

I also have positive feelings about the Jando, and I think Rudolf Firkusny recorded the original version at least once, but my current reference for the piano concerto and also the complete solo piano music is Ivo Kahanek on Supraphon. The concerto is coupled with Martinu's Fourth and features Jakub Hrusa. It's also only a few years old and sonically a noticeable improvement on Naxos or Chandos. His solo piano box I picked up for only about $20 and features four very full CDs and uniformly excellent performances.