Having become fascinated with Graupner I discovered that GMG was lacking a thread for this eminent Baroque composer. His music seems to be moving to a rediscovery with an increasing number of recordings over the last ten years. What are your impressions and experiences with Graupner's music? Recommended recordings? Why do you think his music was virtually forgotten for so many years?
(http://www.primalamusica.com/contents/media/graup.jpg)
"Christoph Graupner (January 13, 1683 in Kirchberg – May 10, 1760 in Darmstadt) was a German harpsichordist and composer of high Baroque music who lived and worked at the same time as Johann Sebastian Bach, Georg Philipp Telemann and George Frideric Handel."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Graupner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Graupner)
Works:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Graupner#Works (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Graupner#Works)
The Graupner 2010 Project:
http://www.graupner-digital.org/ (http://www.graupner-digital.org/)
Graupner: Himmlische Stunden, Selige Zeiten (Cantatas) Feuersinger/Capricornus Consort Basel
I listened to this yesterday and I was literally floored by the beauty of Feuersinger's voice and the ensemble's fiery energy embracing and supporting her. To me this has also been the gateway to Graupner's works. The recording is simply beautiful so I cannot recommend it highly enough to any GMG member that is fond of the Baroque era. Without hesitation I would choose this recording as my top single cd purchase/listen so far this year. Wonderful music!
https://play.spotify.com/album/5OoLyfUABIN40wvMHklTIo (https://play.spotify.com/album/5OoLyfUABIN40wvMHklTIo)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFWXEELLqw4
Hi
Moonfish - thought that I'd join your new thread - one of my many introductions to
Graupner was some of his wind music, especially w/ the chalumeaux (precursor of the clarinet) - below is a post left in a previous thread - the added images are of several of the dozen+ CDs that I own of this composer - enjoy both tremendously (believe you asked this question in the 'listening thread') - Dave :)
QuoteYesterday, I left the post quoted below in the 'listening thread', soon to disappear; both of these are excellent Graupner recordings but the use of the chalumeaux on the one disc stimulated my interest.
The Baroque chalumeau (pic below of a 'family' of these instruments) as quoted in part in a Wiki article: "In the late seventeenth century an improved form of the chalumeau was developed. This baroque chalumeau represents the link between the recorder and the clarinet, and is essentially a cylindrical bore recorder with a mouthpiece like that of a clarinet and two additional "throat" keys controlling notes at the top of the fundamental register. The chalumeau continued to develop for several decades alongside the clarinet, and it has a large repertoire in 18th century orchestral and chamber music."
Jean-Claude Veilhan, one of three performers on these instruments in this recording, has a full page description of the history of the chalumeau, the key differences, and replacement of the single-reed version by the clarinet; he uses a soprano, alto, & tenor instrument in these performances which are copies after Denner ca. 1700 made by Andreas Schöni. :)
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-bj7PFFL/0/M/Chalumeaux1-M.jpg)
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-RV68f3j/0/S/Graupner_Chalumeaux-S.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-g5Z7dtF/0/S/Graupner_Flute_Frey-S.jpg)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 14, 2014, 05:44:59 PM
Hi Moonfish - thought that I'd join your new thread - one of my many introductions to Graupner was some of his wind music, especially w/ the chalumeaux (precursor of the clarinet) - below is a post left in a previous thread - the added images are of several of the dozen+ CDs that I own of this composer - enjoy both tremendously (believe you asked this question in the 'listening thread') - Dave :)
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-RV68f3j/0/S/Graupner_Chalumeaux-S.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-g5Z7dtF/0/S/Graupner_Flute_Frey-S.jpg)
Wonderful! I usually don't start threads (at least not so far), but I really wanted to get more of a fire burning for Graupner. The collective knowledge of GMG is a great resource as one try to dig deeper into an era or a composer. Thanks for those two recommendations. After listening to a few of the samples they come across as definite new additions to my small Graupner collection. Looking forward to hearing them in full. Thanks for the recommendations Dave!
Peter
Graupner wrote so much (typical of Baroque composers) that I need to track what I now own (have my 15/16th CDs just ordered from Amazon), so opened a Google Drive document to list the works of his that I do have so as to not do much duplicating (have similar docs for a handful of other composers, such as Telemann & Vivaldi).
Graupner-Werke-Verzeichnis (GWV) (http://www.graupner-digital.org/gwv.php) - catalog of his works which are divided as shown below - the approximate number of works in each sub-category are shown w/ a link to the list the these works, for those interested - Dave :)
Instrumental Works
Keyboard Works (GWV 101-150) - well over 200 (including a LOT in the GWV 700s/800s) - LIST (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_harpsichord_pieces_by_Christoph_Graupner)
Chamber Music (GWV 201-219) - nearly 40 (including many in the GWV 700s) - LIST (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_chamber_pieces_by_Christoph_Graupner)
Concertos (GWV 301-344) - nearly 50 (including several in the GWV 700s) - LIST (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concertos_by_Christoph_Graupner)
Overtures (GWV 401-485) - nearly 100 works - LIST (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_orchestral_suites_by_Christoph_Graupner)
Symphonies (GWV 501-612) - over 100 - LIST (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_symphonies_by_Christoph_Graupner)
Vocal Works
Sacred Works (GWV 1101/12-1177) - over 1400 cantatas (those GWV numbers have sub-numbers) - LIST (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cantatas_by_Christoph_Graupner)
Secular Works (GWV 1200) - Operas et al
Miscellaneous Works
Incerta (GWV 701-730)
Anonyma (GWV 801-857)
Several Other Categories
I found Graupner some 15 years ago. They played Fasch on radio and bought some Fasch (another wonderful composer). One of the CDs had also works by Graupner (Concertos for bassoon and orchestra/Capella Savaria/Pál Németh). A while ago I realised I have just a few discs of Graupner (my Fasch collection is larger) and I want more. :P
Why Graupner was forgotten? I remember reading something about that. Graupner's works were not published or something like that.
Nice thread, Moonfish!
Thanks for starting it.
Graupner is a composer that I am not familiar with at all and I appreciate the recommendations listed.
I've added the Feuersinger/Capricornus Consort Basel disc that you recommended to my ever-expanding wish list. . . :)
Hope to hear it soon!
Quote from: 71 dB on May 15, 2014, 10:57:32 AM
I found Graupner some 15 years ago. They played Fasch on radio and bought some Fasch (another wonderful composer). One of the CDs had also works by Graupner (Concertos for bassoon and orchestra/Capella Savaria/Pál Németh). A while ago I realised I have just a few discs of Graupner (my Fasch collection is larger) and I want more. :P
Why Graupner was forgotten? I remember reading something about that. Graupner's works were not published or something like that.
Hi
Poju - well,
Graupner was a humble man apparently and wanted all pictures of himself and his manuscripts destroyed upon his death (1760) - nice summary quoted below by Geneviève Soly (http://www.classical-composers.org/comp/graupner) - until that dispute was resolved, his works remained unpublished and were by then 'out of style' - seems to have taken over a 150 years before an interest in this forgotten Baroque composer resurfaced.
Also from the Wiki article quoted earlier, "Another factor that contributed to Graupner's posthumous obscurity was that, unlike Bach, Graupner had very few pupils other than Johann Friedrich Fasch to carry on his musical legacy." Dave :)
QuoteGraupner was a man of such humility that he requested all his music be destroyed by fire after his death. The inevitable legal fight that ensued, placing in opposition his heirs and the court at Darmstadt, was resolved in 1819 when the court was declared sole proprietor of the composer's works. Thus Graupner's manuscripts and autographs remained at the castle in Darmstadt and are now the property of the Hessische Landes und Hochschulbibliothek at the town's university.
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 16, 2014, 08:01:33 AM
Hi Poju - well, Graupner was a humble man apparently and wanted all pictures of himself and his manuscripts destroyed upon his death (1760) - nice summary quoted below by Geneviève Soly (http://www.classical-composers.org/comp/graupner) - until that dispute was resolved, his works remained unpublished and were by then 'out of style' - seems to have taken over a 150 years before an interest in this forgotten Baroque composer resurfaced.
Also from the Wiki article quoted earlier, "Another factor that contributed to Graupner's posthumous obscurity was that, unlike Bach, Graupner had very few pupils other than Johann Friedrich Fasch to carry on his musical legacy." Dave :)
Thanks Dave for this info.
In my opinion it's arrogant to deny the future generations the access to your art. In my opinion a humble person lets the future generations judge whether your art has any value or not.
Quote from: 71 dB on May 16, 2014, 12:27:11 PM
In my opinion it's arrogant to deny the future generations the access to your art. In my opinion a humble person lets the future generations judge whether your art has any value or not.
Well, certainly one may wonder if that was Graupner's real intention? I just don't know much about his life and not sure if there are any recently researched biographies or possibly doctoral dissertations that may broach that question?
BUT, despite his apparent desire to have his works destroyed after his death, nearly all of his manuscripts (yet in autograph form) survived - none were published during his lifetime, and the legal dispute certainly impacted on their delayed publication until the 20th century. Dave :)
Concerning
Graupner's vocal compositions, I have just the 2-CD set below, which is entitled erroneously
A Christmas Oratorio performed by Ex Tempore & Mannheimer Hofkapelle under the direction of Florian Heyerick - according to the liner notes, 9 Cantatas (quoted below) were selected which related to the Advent & Christmas seasons - the instrumentation is varied as expected and the singing is quite good - for those interested, a Fanfare Review HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Mannheim-Hofkapelle/Ensemble/216708-4) w/ a few 'quibbles' by the reviewer about several of the singers, but still highly recommended. Dave :)
QuoteDie Nacht ist vergangen, GWV 1101/22
Heulet, denn des Herrn Tag ist nahe, GWV 1102/26
Wer da glaubet dass Jesus sei der Christ, GWV 1103/40
Tut Busse und lasse sich ein jeglicher taufen, GWV 1104/34
Wie bald hast du gelitten, GWV 1109/14
Jauchzet ihr Himmel, erfreue dich Erde, GWV 1105/53
Sie eifern um Gott, GWV 1106/46
Gott sei uns gnädig, GWV 1109/41
Merk auf, mein Herz, GWV 1111/44
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-9xjdwmr/0/O/Graupner_Christmas.jpg)
I am very impressed by Solty's efforts to expand the discography of Graupner's compositions. Her efforts with the Alliance label is definitely an admirable contribution to realm of the Baroque. These are recent arrivals that I cannot wait to explore. They seem to contain an interesting blend of Graupner's works (a miniature smorgasbord). - Peter
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[asin] B0000C88G1[/asin]
Quote from: HIPster on May 15, 2014, 03:24:33 PM
Nice thread, Moonfish!
Thanks for starting it.
Graupner is a composer that I am not familiar with at all and I appreciate the recommendations listed.
I've added the Feuersinger/Capricornus Consort Basel disc that you recommended to my ever-expanding wish list. . . :)
Hope to hear it soon!
Thanks! That recording is fantastic. I have already listened to it three times over the past week. The cantata "Angst und Jammer" is outstanding as far as I am concerned. Beautiful divine angelic singing! :) Peter
Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 18, 2014, 09:43:29 AM
Concerning Graupner's vocal compositions, I have just the 2-CD set below, which is entitled erroneously A Christmas Oratorio performed by Ex Tempore & Mannheimer Hofkapelle under the direction of Florian Heyerick - according to the liner notes, 9 Cantatas (quoted below) were selected which related to the Advent & Christmas seasons - the instrumentation is varied as expected and the singing is quite good - for those interested, a Fanfare Review HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Mannheim-Hofkapelle/Ensemble/216708-4) w/ a few 'quibbles' by the reviewer about several of the singers, but still highly recommended. Dave :)
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-9xjdwmr/0/O/Graupner_Christmas.jpg)
Thanks for that Dave! I definitely viewed the disc as an oratorium and not like a set of cantatas. Thanks for clearing that up and for posting the Fanfare review! It is always interesting to read impressions of Graupner's music. It is on my wish list!
(Hmm, this is my 1,000th post! Yay!) :P
Peter
Yoohoo Moonfish. Look what I dibsed.
Quote from: Ken B on May 18, 2014, 01:04:58 PM
Yoohoo Moonfish. Look what I dibsed.
Ha ha! Well, I can tell that all that modern 20th century music must have affected you.... ;)
Inspired by this thread I have been listening to some Graupner. It's ironic that the feature of his music which would have prevented it being played in the decades after his death has now, after the early music revivial, turned into an incentive to play it, namely his use of exotic instruments such as oboi d'amore, flauti d'amore, viole d'amore (lot of love there) and chalameaux.
Love it!
Quote from: Moonfish on May 21, 2014, 11:15:04 AM
Sorry about taking so long to respond. The week has been very busy....
Well, my Graupner collection is not very large at the moment so it is hard to compare. I found this particular disc delightful with a blend of cantatas, concertos and sonata. It would definitely serve as a great entry point to Graupner's music together with the Feuersinger recording. Very clear recordings (often serene) and the ensemble and the singers bristle with energy. I really liked it. I am very fond of Graupner's cantatas at the moment. So much actually that I keep adding Graupner recordings to my wish list! You know, it is all your "fault" bringing those Soly recordings forward in GMG. ;D
I need to listen to vol 2 ...
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No problem, we're all busy. I'm getting married coming Staurday, you can imagine how busy I am at the moment... ::) :D
Thanks for the recommendation! :) I clearly should investigate outside Graupner's keyboard music.
Q
Quote from: Que on May 21, 2014, 10:16:37 PM
No problem, we're all busy. I'm getting married coming Staurday, you can imagine how busy I am at the moment... ::) :D
Thanks for the recommendation! :) I clearly should investigate outside Graupner's keyboard music.
Q
Congratulations on your upcoming marriage! :)
Quote from: Que on May 21, 2014, 10:16:37 PM
No problem, we're all busy. I'm getting married coming Staurday, you can imagine how busy I am at the moment... ::) :D
[....]
Staurday?
Wow, you really must be nervous.
http://www.youtube.com/v/BRDBvKGc1fE
I'm sure you picked a nice lady and I hope she enjoys Graupner as much as you do!
http://www.youtube.com/v/FmqOhaqJt8Y
Congrats!
Quote from: Que on May 21, 2014, 10:16:37 PM
No problem, we're all busy. I'm getting married coming Staurday, you can imagine how busy I am at the moment... ::) :D
Hi
Que - congrats on your marriage! Dave :)
BY ETAN RESUNEGIE (Tempi, AZ)
A musicologist at the University of Tempi has a theory which he says "could revolutionize music and theatre history." Professor P Luna believes that a well-known Baroque era composer never existed.
"He's a myth, a carefully, artfully constructed myth" says Luna of Christoph Graupner (1683 – 1760). "Faked portraits, faked letters, faked birth, faked death, fake, fake, fake. "
Luna lays out his reasoning in the latest issue of the Left-leaning Tancrede . "The name is a giveaway. It is slang for 'fishy' in Dodecaphonese, a little spoken language known for its harsh guttural sounds. Besides that no real composer speaks Dodecaphonese." Luna also cites the lack of recordings. "We have Bach on the original instruments for heaven's sake, but no 'Graupner'. Think about it."
But this claim, extraordinary as it is, is not the most shocking part of Luna's thesis. "Shakespeare wrote that music, that's what he was doing while the Earl of Oxford was writing the history plays" Luna writes in the Right-leaning Tancrede .
Luna's paper was not well received by more mainstream historians. "Boy, it's like baklava really: both flaky and nutty" wrote D. Zauber VII in a recent review in Q. H Kenning was even more dismissive: "Rubbish! Everyone knows Francis Bacon wrote the history plays."
Hmmmm...
(http://celiasue.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/dog-writing-on-computer.gif)
Thanks everybody for the congratulations!! :) :) Naturally I had to choose a venerable thread like this for the announcement. :D
Anyway, before I loose my freedom and fly off to Bali, Indonesia, let's talk about this recording:
[asin]B0081VMIMS[/asin]
Guys, I'm not quite sure if this disc quite does it... :-\. It is nice, but I have a slight problem with Letzbor's approach.
He tries to make Graupner's music more interesting/expressive (why? ::)) by "edging" it. Brisk attacks by the strings and highlighting dissonant chords.
All nice and well, but with this added abrasiveness makes the music rather looses some of its bubbly charm that I know from a Veilhan recording. And it sounds hurried at times, especially in the chamuleau solos.
Mixed feelings, therefore.... 7/10 in my book.
Q
Quote from: Que on May 23, 2014, 02:41:34 AM
Thanks everybody for the congratulations!! :) :) Naturally I had to choose a venerable thread like this for the announcement. :D
Anyway, before I loose my freedom and fly off to Bali, Indonesia, let's talk about this recording:
[asin]B0081VMIMS[/asin]
Guys, I'm not quite sure if this disc quite does it... :-\. It is nice, but I have a slight problem with Letzbor's approach.
He tries to make Graupner's music more interesting/expressive (why? ::)) by "edging" it. Brisk attacks by the strings and highlighting dissonant chords.
All nice and well, but with this added abrasiveness makes the music rather looses some of its bubbly charm that I know from a Veilhan recording. And it sounds hurried at times, especially in the chamuleau solos.
Mixed feelings, therefore.... 7/10 in my book.
Q
Funny, I was listening to this disc on Spotify yesterday and also felt something weird about it. Oddly reverberant yet dry sound. ::)
My two newest Graupner acquisitions are shown below (far left/middle) and because of the comments left by Que & 71 db on the Letzbor recording, I thought a re-listening was in order:
Letzbor, Gunar w/ Ars Antiqua Austria - Concerto & Overtures (3 works) w/ chalumeaux & Violin Sonatas (2 works) - the liner notes are excellent which include a short discussion on the chalumeau & also comments by the sound engineer on the recording and the room used indicating that a lot of attention went into deciding 'how best' to make this music sound possibly like it did in the composer's time - a success - who knows? I'd likely rate this a notch higher on Que's scale and at least 4*/5 if doing an Amazon review; also, on my standard stereo w/ two speakers, I did not get the feeling of a reverberant sound - NOW, this was recorded in SACD (which I do not have to sample this format), so possibly there would be a difference. But for those considering this recording, look at this Review 1 (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Oct12/Graupner_Chalumeaux_CC72539.htm) & also Review 2 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Ernst-Schlader/Performer/265849-2), which might help in a decision.
Kaakinen-Pilch w/ the Finnish Baroque Orchestra - Orchestral Suites (3 works) w/ chalumeaux on 2 performances. Recently recorded in 2013 and an excellent production as expected from Ondine. These works were also performed in a 'small' room but w/ more instruments so the 'sound stage' is somewhat fuller - for those considering a purchase, see Review 3 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Finnish-Baroque-Orchestra/Ensemble/300051-4) & Review 4 (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Jan14/Graupner_suites_ODE12202.htm).
But I must agree w/ Que that my favorite Graupner charlumeaux CD is the one w/ Jean-Claude Veilhan - Dave :)
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-4Zs4NV3/0/O/Graupner_Letzbor.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-s6GzKdb/0/O/Graupner_Finnish.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-RV68f3j/0/O/Graupner_Chalumeaux.jpg)
Congratulations on your marriage, Que! :)
Have a wonderful time in Bali too. 8)
As for Graupner -
Appreciate the reviews! The Letzbor has interested me for some time and so I take note of the comments here. . . BTW, I've recently come across his take on J.S. Bach's 4 Orchestral Suites and that interpretation is quickly becoming one of my favorites (a bonus, too, is that it's on one single disc! Does not sound rushed at all either).
SonicDave - thank you for the review of the Ondine and the positive mention of the Pierre Verany release - both are now added to my wish list. :)
Quote from: Moonfish on May 14, 2014, 02:49:39 PM
Graupner: Himmlische Stunden, Selige Zeiten (Cantatas) Feuersinger/Capricornus Consort Basel
I listened to this yesterday and I was literally floored by the beauty of Feuersinger's voice and the ensemble's fiery energy embracing and supporting her. To me this has also been the gateway to Graupner's works. The recording is simply beautiful so I cannot recommend it highly enough to any GMG member that is fond of the Baroque era. Without hesitation I would choose this recording as my top single cd purchase/listen so far this year. Wonderful music!
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My copy of this arrived yesterday. :) In general it is very good, but I have some negative things too to say:
- The recorded sound is clear, but the spatial distortion is strong. There is something with the sound that bucks me, something unnatural... ...the acoustic cues are off, as if the microphone set up was very strange.
- The style they play/sing this music sound too serene and not energetic enough. Okay, I am not unfortunately an expert of Graupner's cantatas, but this disc sounds too "Italian" and slow to my ears. The balance between Miriam Feuersinger's voice and Capricornus Consort Basel is off (singing is too dominant). I prefer less reverberation.
- The last cantata "Achh Gott und Herr" is repetitious as hell, 20 minutes of the same!
- My copy came without a booklet! >:(
I had pretty high expectations for this disc and in the end the product came out unwhelming.
Quote from: Que on May 21, 2014, 10:16:37 PM
No problem, we're all busy. I'm getting married coming Staurday, you can imagine how busy I am at the moment... ::) :D
Thanks for the recommendation! :) I clearly should investigate outside Graupner's keyboard music.
Q
Congratulations,
Que!
*bump*
No love for Graupner? ???
Quote from: Que on May 21, 2014, 10:16:37 PM
No problem, we're all busy. I'm getting married coming Staurday, you can imagine how busy I am at the moment... ::) :D
....and I can imagine how busy you will become during the many years to come.
Never mind, CONGRATULATIONS from me.
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 31, 2018, 07:54:41 AM
....and I can imagine how busy you will become during the many years to come.
Never mind, CONGRATULATIONS from me.
How time flies..... Happy memories.... :)
Anyway, I agree with
Moonfish - high time to revive this thread!
Q