I get the feeling this is going to be a very hot thread....
Right now on the list:
Putin
Assad
Gadafi
Pakistan and Iceland prime minister
But also
Lionel Messi
Platini and a number of FIFA officials
Patrick Drahi (SFR CEO)
I get the feeling that its going to hit the US real soon
I love that moment when the shit hits the fan...
Guardian first page tomorrow
Apparently Cameron family is cited also, as the family of almost all kings of the planet.
This is going to be very hot
Perhaps of interest then:
https://panamapapers.icij.org/20160403-panama-papers-global-overview.html (https://panamapapers.icij.org/20160403-panama-papers-global-overview.html)
Not to mention there's a cellist involved (http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/03/sergei-roldugin-the-cellist-who-holds-the-key-to-tracing-putins-hidden-fortune) >:D
The law firm involved will be the main losers here; apart from all we proles.
Mike
So far it seems that mostly non-westerner's name were leaked, so there is hardly any news that they is corruption in Russia, China and FIFA.
If the western politico-corporate establishment really wanted to do something against money-laundering, tax evasion etc. they would have closed the loopholes in the tax codes and those tax havens long ago. (As could be seen a few years ago when the US was going suddenly quite tough on Swiss banks that helped tax evaders) Obviously, they do not want to.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/04/corporate-media-gatekeepers-protect-western-1-from-panama-leak/
Quote from: Jo498 on April 04, 2016, 06:28:20 AM
So far it seems that mostly non-westerner's name were leaked, so there is hardly any news that they is corruption in Russia, China and FIFA.
If the western politico-corporate establishment really wanted to do something against money-laundering, tax evasion etc. they would have closed the loopholes in the tax codes and those tax havens long ago. (As could be seen a few years ago when the US was going suddenly quite tough on Swiss banks that helped tax evaders) Obviously, they do not want to.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/04/corporate-media-gatekeepers-protect-western-1-from-panama-leak/
I agree; these 'loopholes', so-called, were created to allow the laws, which are merely symbols created for the benefit of the multitude, to be bypassed by those who are immune to them.
8)
Quote from: Jo498 on April 04, 2016, 06:28:20 AMIf the western politico-corporate establishment really wanted to do something against money-laundering, tax evasion etc. they would have closed the loopholes in the tax codes and those tax havens long ago. (As could be seen a few years ago when the US was going suddenly quite tough on Swiss banks that helped tax evaders) Obviously, they do not want to.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 04, 2016, 06:55:39 AM
I agree; these 'loopholes', so-called, were created to allow the laws, which are merely symbols created for the benefit of the multitude, to be bypassed by those who are immune to them.
You guys are too cynical. The Russians and Chinese are bad guys. FIFA is corrupt because it must deal with such unwholesome nations. The US, UK, France, Germany, the rest of Western Europe, they are good guys. Also, the Western press is not biased.
Quote from: Jo498 on April 04, 2016, 06:28:20 AM
So far it seems that mostly non-westerner's name were leaked, so there is hardly any news that they is corruption in Russia, China and FIFA.
If the western politico-corporate establishment really wanted to do something against money-laundering, tax evasion etc. they would have closed the loopholes in the tax codes and those tax havens long ago. (As could be seen a few years ago when the US was going suddenly quite tough on Swiss banks that helped tax evaders) Obviously, they do not want to.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/04/corporate-media-gatekeepers-protect-western-1-from-panama-leak/
Mr. Murray misses out on the fact that (thanks to the loopholes, etc.) EuroAmerican companies get to hide their money in plain sight.
There are corruption indices that are fairly objective for the less "beliefy". For everyone else, have you tried cynicism? I hear it's awesome.
The U.S. ranks 16th on a measure I consulted. Denmark ranks 1st. Does this surprise anyone? Show us your beliefs!
Quote from: drogulus on April 04, 2016, 07:23:49 AMThe U.S. ranks 16th on a measure I consulted. Denmark ranks 1st.
Please to share your objective source of information.
Google corruption index. Then, find one that "believes" Belarus is the least corrupt. Since it's all opinion, that one is as good as any.
Quote from: Todd on April 04, 2016, 07:05:51 AM
You guys are too cynical. The Russians and Chinese are bad guys. FIFA is corrupt because it must deal with such unwholesome nations. The US, UK, France, Germany, the rest of Western Europe, they are good guys. Also, the Western press is not biased.
Oh, OK, that's a relief. I feel so much better now, I'll be able to sleep tonight! :)
8)
Quote from: drogulus on April 04, 2016, 07:54:38 AMGoogle corruption index. Then, find one that "believes" Belarus is the least corrupt. Since it's all opinion, that one is as good as any.
No, no, I'm interested in the one you personally consulted and deem to be an objective source of objective measurement of an objectively agreed to definition of corruption.
The Panama Papers scandal/kerfuffle (take your pick) is, or will be, mostly centered around the financial dealings of wealthy individuals - mostly private citizens, though some pols will get caught up in it - and corporations using the arcana of national tax laws to engage in tax avoidance
at least, along with tax evasion, with some other illicit activities thrown in. The line between tax avoidance and tax evasion can be blurry, of course, and the trick is identifying where it morphs from one to the other. I suppose if one takes the view that it is not corrupt if it is legal, this whole affair will simply reinforce a certain, comfortable good guy/bad guy dynamic. It's all good.
It's mainly individuals but probably many (ex)politicians or (ex) corporate. Unlike corporate welfare nobody can seriously claim that such loopholes benefit the economy (except those tiny states and a bunch of law firms).
I am probably hopelessly naive but I don't see why shell corporations and letterbox companies are not simply banned in all major western countries and pressure is put on the tiny (often-ex-colonies) who harbor them (it seems perfectly fitting that one partner of that Panama law firm is the son of a Nazi who evaded to Latin America).
Quote from: Jo498 on April 04, 2016, 08:16:59 AMI am probably hopelessly naive but I don't see why shell corporations and letterbox companies are not simply banned in all major western countries
Letterbox corporations could probably be done away with without much negative impact, but "shell corporations", depending on how one defines them, can have value for a variety of purposes, for both small and large entities.
Corruption indices tend to cluster. I take the point that there are some more legalistic and others that take into account definitions of what's corrupt within the law. This isn't entirely objective, but it's still the case that nations that rate highly will tend to be better by both measures. I consulted the first one that came up when I Googled. It said pretty much the same thing I've read before, the U.S. is not in the top 10, Afghanistan is at or near the bottom, and some countries in northern Europe along with Singapore are near the top.
Quote from: drogulus on April 04, 2016, 08:30:19 AMThis isn't entirely objective
Correct, it's "beliefy".
A high level of financial secrecy is both a positive and a negative, and I would think this would be a point where the line between liberty and corrupt practice blurs. Much as I despise the common use of the liberty concept, there should be enough to satisfy the noncrankish, and not so much as to make the concept of corruption disappear entirely.
Quote from: Todd on April 04, 2016, 08:33:34 AM
Correct, it's "beliefy".
I don't think you get the point of the term. "Beliefy" doesn't mean you have beliefs. It means you deny that a belief, being a belief, can also be a fact, or in the case of subjective instances like legal corruption, useful enough to change laws. Laws are changed because of opinions, when they're related plausibly to facts of the matter the law targets. In short, there are beliefs, and there are other beliefs, and it's never just a matter of belief which are worth holding. Otherwise you'd just believe anything. I think people who purport to believe beliefs are self-authenticating don't really mean it. Trump is not a pink unicorn, even if he's arguably pink. A belief to that effect would be wrong on the facts.
Quote from: drogulus on April 04, 2016, 08:50:05 AMBeliefy doesn't mean you have beliefs. It means you deny that a belief, being a belief, can also be a fact
Thanks for clarifying the definition of your made up word. Is "beliefyness" also a word? It would be even more valuable if it could be a noun as well as an adjective.
Quote from: Todd on April 04, 2016, 08:55:17 AM
Is "beliefyness" also a word?
As of this moment, I, uh, believe so. It's kind of a dollar question, though. You have to get it accepted. Are "fiat words" real words? Not until they're in the dictionary, I suppose.
I had to check out RT to get the completely unbiased scoop. The lead headline: "'Goebbels had less-biased articles': Public slams MSM for Putin focus after Panama papers leak." (https://www.rt.com/news/338338-panama-papers-putin-outrage/)
I will go out on a limb here and guess that it will not take much digging to find the Clintons mired in all this.
One of course feels sympathy for the distinguished law firm that is unfortunately caught up in this. They have repeatedly explained that they are totally honest and law abiding.
One of their documents shows explicitly that they planned how to shelter money from the Brinks Mat robbery. Clearly breaching legal obligatons and their claims to be ethical.
This is the largest leak ever; but only covers one law firm in one tax haven.
Mike
Casualty #1 of the crisis! (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/05/iceland-prime-minister-resigns-over-panama-papers-revelations)
Should we start a pool on whether Putin resigns over the Panama Papers?
Quote from: Todd on April 05, 2016, 07:59:59 AM
Should we start a pool on whether Putin resigns over the Panama Papers?
Putin never promised integrity nor to fight corruption. This is not the case of this guy, which immediate family is cited in the Panama papers.
He blatantly lied. He wont resign. But he could be kicked out "manu militari". I always keep a bottle of champagne cold, just in case...
Quote from: Spineur on April 05, 2016, 08:36:46 AMHe blatantly lied. He wont resign. But he could be kicked out "manu militari". I always keep a bottle of champagne cold, just in case...
I thought he went tiger hunting in the PLA a while back, clearing out corrupt potential enemies. Presumably the corrupt ones left behind are more beholden to him now.
Obama enters the fray. (http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/05/justice-department-panama-papers-mossack-fonseca-us-investigation)
Sayeth he: "There is no doubt that the problem of global tax avoidance generally is a huge problem[.] The problem is that a lot of this stuff is legal, not illegal."
The article also points out some inconvenient facts (opinions?) about the good old US of A. For instance, it ranks third on a financial secrecy index, (http://www.financialsecrecyindex.com/) and as was learned earlier in this very thread, such indices are very valuable and accurate and objective.
One pissed Swiss apparently doesn't like competition. From the article: "How ironic – no, how perverse – that the USA, which has been so sanctimonious in its condemnation of Swiss banks, has become the banking secrecy jurisdiction du jour," Peter Cotorceanu, a lawyer at Swiss law firm Anaford AG said in a recent legal journal, according to Bloomberg. "That 'giant sucking sound' you hear? It is the sound of money rushing to the USA."
This could be a grand scandal, after all! Or at least entertaining for weeks or months to come.
Hey, I wonder if Trump's name pops up in all this?
I propose we lower the corporate tax, and if corps are taxed higher abroad (as if...) we cut them a break, if lower they cut us a break. The point would be that companies could choose to optimize both domestic and overseas expansion with little to choose in the way of taxation. This way we wouldn't be at the mercy of beggar thy neighbor tax havens.
Well the facts seem to have been dragged out of PM Cameron over a four day period with him now saying that he is responsible for the mess made of his explanations. So, he is responsible, but what are the consequences? The Stay supporters of the EU referendum will be angry, as his diminishing reputation feeds into the hands of the BREXIT campaign. Over such an 'accident' the whole direction of the UK may prove to have been altered As Kissinger advised; whatever has to be eventually admitted should be owned up to immediately.
Both the Chancellor and Boris are staying quiet and no doubt with good reason.
There is a 'resign' protest in London today. 1000 or so protesters. It is dominated by a holiday mood, dancing, singing etc. Unlike Iceland; nothing will come of it. Not even eggs thrown let along punches or Molotov cocktails. However, Cameron's face is affixed to a pig piñata, so good old British satire will see us through.
Mike.
The man with a hat, by Amedeo Modigliani, a stolen painting by the Nazi during WW2 and smuggled to the US through a London art dealer has been found as one of the assets of a Panama offshore trust, and will probably have to be return to its real owners
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/07/panama-papers-reveal-owners-of-valuable-modigliani-stolen-by-naz/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/07/panama-papers-reveal-owners-of-valuable-modigliani-stolen-by-naz/)
Quote from: Spineur on April 09, 2016, 12:52:01 PM
The man with a hat, by Amedeo Modigliani, a stolen painting by the Nazi during WW2 and smuggled to the US through a London art dealer has been found as one of the assets of a Panama offshore trust, and will probably have to be return to its real owners
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/07/panama-papers-reveal-owners-of-valuable-modigliani-stolen-by-naz/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/07/panama-papers-reveal-owners-of-valuable-modigliani-stolen-by-naz/)
This painting was actually physically stored in Geneva "port franc" where large valuable objects can be stored in air conditionned secret warehouse. Somehow, the swiss police got a hold of this masterwork an enpounded it.
The journalist group behind the Panama Papers are now announcing a further, big story series to be launched, apparently later today, and based on a new complex of leaks.
Apparently some of it will deal with the Swedish financial and industrial sector.
Well, it´s more than that, including Trump administration stuff.
They´ve chosen to call it "The Paradise Papers" 8)
Listened to the first revelations. The juiciest one concerned Wilbur Ross who has been doing bussiness with russian oligarchs who are on the state department black list. It is an interesting coup the theatre in the Trump russian dealings.
They also mentioned Justin Trudeau and the queen of england who are involved in fiscal paradise.
To be followed...
Short initial summaries here
https://www.occrp.org/en/paradisepapers/
and here https://projekte.sueddeutsche.de/paradisepapers/politik/the-new-offshore-leak-e969006/