Assuming there is no organ or piano, what are the highest and lowest-pitched instruments in the orchestra? Can the contrabasoon play lower than the double bass? The tuba? Can a violin produce a higher-pitched note than a piccolo?
Lowest is tuba while piccolo is highest.
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on February 09, 2008, 11:59:34 AM
Assuming there is no organ or piano, what are the highest and lowest-pitched instruments in the orchestra?
Generally speaking, they are the piccolo (highest note is the highest C on the piano, although it requires a skilled player to comfortably play the notes in the top half or so of the highest octave) and the contrabassoon (which can comfortably reach the lowest Bb on the piano, and some instruments with a low A extension can even reach the lowest note on the piano. This makes the Bb impossible to play though, and while low A's can be found for bassoon in plenty of late-romantic music, the contrabassoon's low A an octave lower is very rarely written).
However, do bear in mind the following:
QuoteCan a violin produce a higher-pitched note than a piccolo?
With harmonics, it is possible for a violin to reach the highest C on the piano and even higher but these notes can only be produced somewhat reliably by the most advanced players and would require an incredible amount of effort to produce above C or so. I definitely know that the original cadenza for Ligeti's Violin Concerto (written in collaboration with the work's dedicatee Saschko Gawriloff) reaches a high E above the highest note of the piano and there are probably some contemporary pieces that go even higher. However, these ridiculously high notes are definitely not in the "standard range" and you will not find much music at all that requires a violinist to play this high, except in some contemporary pieces. Also, you would never find anything this high being written for an entire violin section in the orchestra, because it would be too difficult to get a stable sound from that many players.
QuoteCan the contrabassoon play lower than the double bass? The tuba?
Yes, the contrabassoon can reach the lowest Bb on the piano, whereas the double bass can only go down to a low E, or with a C extension a low C. The tuba's lowest "standard range" note is a low E, but some tubas are able to go down even further to as low as the lowest Bb on the piano and maybe even further. I'm fairly sure though that only a contrabass tuba can go down this low, and any lower notes will be ugly unstable pedal tones.
Thanks for the explanation. The Bosendorfers with the extended bass will still beat them all. ;D
Quote from: Symphonien on February 09, 2008, 07:16:52 PM
Also, you would never find anything this high being written for an entire violin section in the orchestra, because it would be too difficult to get a stable sound from that many players.
In some works, as in Aida, the score asks for only two or four violinists in the harmonics part; but I don't remember how high they go, and I can't find my score.
Quote from: Manuel on February 10, 2008, 05:34:10 AM
In some works, as in Aida, the score asks for only two or four violinists in the harmonics part; but I don't remember how high they go, and I can't find my score.
If you're thinking of the ending scene, he writes harmonics no higher than fundamental Gb right above the staff, sounding two octaves higher.
Quote from: Sforzando on February 10, 2008, 07:34:49 AM
If you're thinking of the ending scene, he writes harmonics no higher than fundamental Gb right above the staff, sounding two octaves higher.
That must be.
All right, time for a monkey wrench in this discussion. ;) The ranges of instruments are actually pretty flexible. Strings can be retuned; brass players can use the seldom-used 1st (fundamental) harmonic/overtone which is usually not considered part of the normal range; and other factors may be involved. The upper ranges, especially, are theoretically unlimited; in practice they are limited only by the players' strength and/or skill.
Strings: I've heard many five-stringed basses on which the lowest string is tuned to a low B or even a low A (the lowest note on the piano). The upper ranges are not hard to produce--any competent violinist can go well above the piano's highest C with no unusual effort--but they are hard to control. Imagine a violin section trying to play in tune at those Himalayan heights! :o
Woodwinds: The low ends of woodwind ranges are pretty well fixed by physical laws; you can't go lower than to play with all holes covered. (I have seen bassoonists put a roll of paper or plastic in the end of their horns to play a low A, but then they lose their low Bb.) But the upper range is limited only by the pressure a player's lungs and lips can put on the reed or hole. On the oboe I can play up to a high G four lines above the staff comfortably, and if I really stretch I can hit the A above; while on the flute I can play the D in the piano's last octave, and I've heard flutists hit the F or even G above. Jazz flutists, notably Paul Horn, regularly play in this altissimo range.
Brass: Using the fundamental harmonic adds an additional octave to the low ranges. In Varèse's Arcana there's a sustained low G (below the piano's lowest A) for tuba toward the end, making the tuba the lowest instrument in the orchestra--at least at that moment. Again, the tone is not hard to make, but hard to control. And again, the only limit to the upper ranges is the pressure a great player can put on his/her lips. As usual, jazz players have explored the upper limits much more than orchestral players; some of today's jazz trumpeters leave Maynard Ferguson far below. :o
So the only orchestral instruments whose ranges are really fixed are mallet percussion such as the glockenspiel and xylophone--and individual instruments' range may vary. :)
How low is this one?
Quote from: Magle International ForumsOne of only two or three full length 64' stops ... and here's what it sounds like, from the Grand Organ at Sydney Town Hall, Australia.
[mp3=200,20,0,center]
http://www.sydneyorgan.com/STH64.mp3[/mp3]
QuoteA 64' is an *expensive draught* but does contribute to the ensemble in a suitable acoustic. Having heard that instrument in person I observe that upper octaves really *charge* the instrument but the lowest octave seems to fizzle out. Which leads me to think about the low air pressure and quantity of wind it is voiced on - 3-1/2" AFAIK. It stands to reason if one is paying for 8-16 hertz frequencies(64' - 32') then one should have higher pressure and greater wind quantity for the desired effect. There is lots of 32' magnificence on that instrument - why only let the 64' sound like the passing of flatulence from an elephant?
http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/3047-can-you-really-hear.htmlhttp://www.magle.dk/music-forums/4811-two-64-footers-one.html
Quote from: Manuel on February 12, 2008, 05:18:14 PM
How low is this one?...
If it were written, it would be two octaves lower than the lowest C on a standard piano, an octave lower than the Bösendorfer concert grand's lowest note. :D
What I find unusual about this particular rank is that it's a
trombone stop--a reed stop, rather than a pipe. I've heard 32' organ pipes live, or maybe they were 16' closed pipes that only sounded like 32', but I've never heard a 64' one! More felt than heard. I have seen organs with trumpet/trombone pipes that point directly at the audience; huge sounds from those reeds! ;D
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on February 09, 2008, 08:38:20 PM
Thanks for the explanation. The Bosendorfers with the extended bass will still beat them all. ;D
Oh, I've played on a few of those! Man, what a sound! what colors. I'd love to have one.
Quote from: O Mensch on February 20, 2008, 10:56:09 AM
Oh, I've played on a few of those! Man, what a sound! what colors. I'd love to have one.
What are they, over $200K now? ;D But yeah, I've played a Bösendorfer concert grand in music stores a few times. Once I played
La cathédrale engloutie using the lowest C at the climax. :D
Quote from: jochanaan on February 12, 2008, 03:27:15 PM
Strings can be retuned;
at the end of some of Penderecki's works, like Fluorescences, he has the bass section tune down their basses as low as possible (in a cluster!) I really wonder how far they can go..... maybe it's about the same range as the electric guitar, which can go down to a rumble when you hit the low E string and put the whammy bar down to what they call "slack".
Quote from: jochanaan on February 20, 2008, 04:12:11 PM
What are they, over $200K now? ;D But yeah, I've played a Bösendorfer concert grand in music stores a few times. Once I played La cathédrale engloutie using the lowest C at the climax. :D
That's funny. Precisely one of the works that I played on one of those.
Quote from: O Mensch on February 22, 2008, 11:08:50 AM
That's funny. Precisely one of the works that I played on one of those.
It lends itself well to the expanded range,
n'est-ce pas? :D
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on February 20, 2008, 06:10:05 PM
at the end of some of Penderecki's works, like Fluorescences, he has the bass section tune down their basses as low as possible (in a cluster!) I really wonder how far they can go..... maybe it's about the same range as the electric guitar, which can go down to a rumble when you hit the low E string and put the whammy bar down to what they call "slack".
My guess is that the limit is practical, not theoretical. Perhaps some of the bass players here can enlighten us...?
I think the Tubaphone goes lower than contrabassoon, and it´s sound doesn´t become "crunchy" down there, it produces very clear tones!
Quote from: Symphonien on February 09, 2008, 07:16:52 PM
Yes, the contrabassoon can reach the lowest Bb on the piano, whereas the double bass can only go down to a low E, or with a C extension a low C.
On a 5-string bass, the 5th string is typically tuned to B, but it can of course be tuned down to Bflat or A or Aflat. The low A actually occurs in Berg's Drei Orchesterstücke, a low B in Also sprach Zarathustra. But apart from these and a few other examples, notes below C are fairly rare.
Quote from: M forever on April 22, 2008, 02:06:54 PM
On a 5-string bass, the 5th string is typically tuned to B, but it can of course be tuned down to Bflat or A or Aflat. The low A actually occurs in Berg's Drei Orchesterstücke, a low B in Also sprach Zarathustra. But apart from these and a few other examples, notes below C are fairly rare.
Yes, you are right. I completely forgot about the 5-stringed bass when I wrote that!
And very interesting to note that the Berg 3 Pieces go down to a low A; I did not know that. Do you know any other examples of scordatura on the lowest string for the 5-stringed bass? I'm sure there are plenty of contemporary pieces like the Penderecki Greg mentioned that will go extremely low... but this would seem to be more of an effect than a practical clear-pitched note.
Quote from: M forever on April 22, 2008, 02:06:54 PM
On a 5-string bass, the 5th string is typically tuned to B, but it can of course be tuned down to Bflat or A or Aflat. The low A actually occurs in Berg's Drei Orchesterstücke, a low B in Also sprach Zarathustra. But apart from these and a few other examples, notes below C are fairly rare.
M, where in the Berg does the low A occur?
Quote from: paul on June 19, 2008, 09:55:17 AM
M, where in the Berg does the low A occur?
I was about to say, "three ledger lines below the staff," but I'll have to wait until I get home tonight to check my score. The low B (in German nomenclature H), however, definitely occurs in Wozzeck, Act Three Scene Two. This is the scene where Wozzeck murders Marie and Berg calls it an "Invention on a Note," which in this case is - B.
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on February 20, 2008, 06:10:05 PM
. . . the electric guitar, which can go down to a rumble when you hit the low E string and put the whammy bar down to what they call "slack".
A slacker with a whammy bar? Why, that's a
fine how-d'ye-do!
Quote from: Sforzando on June 19, 2008, 09:59:39 AM
I was about to say, "three ledger lines below the staff," but I'll have to wait until I get home tonight to check my score. The low B (in German nomenclature H), however, definitely occurs in Wozzeck, Act Three Scene Two. This is the scene where Wozzeck murders Marie and Berg calls it an "Invention on a Note," which in this case is - B.
I went through the score of the Berg Op. 6 twice and could not find a low A for the basses. Perhaps Mr. Forever is thinking of my example from Wozzeck.
It's not "Mr Forever". "Forever" is not my last name, it is an extension of the essential M-ness described by the letter M into the sphere of timelessness (therefore "forever"). You can call me "Mr M" though if you want. But just "M" is OK, too, after all we are among friends here (I think).
Anyway, it's been a looooooong time that I played the 3 pieces but I thought I remembered that low A clearly. But I could be mistaken. There are at least 2 different versions or editions of the pieces though, so maybe it only occurs in one of these. Or I am wrong after all. But I could swear there is a note lower than the B ("H" in German) there somewhere in one of Berg's works. Or was it in one of Schönberg's? Hmm... I do remember specifically that I played a piece from the era once and it necessitated tuning the 5th string down. Sorry, I don't have many scores and none of these, so I can't look for that myself.
Quote from: M forever on June 19, 2008, 05:34:19 PM
It's not "Mr Forever". "Forever" is not my last name.
I know.
Quote from: M forever on June 19, 2008, 05:34:19 PM
But just "M" is OK, too, after all we are among friends here (I think).
As Verdi's Grand Inquisitor replies to King Philip, "Forse!" (Or "Peut-être!" if you prefer the original French.)
Quote from: M forever on June 19, 2008, 05:34:19 PMIt's not "Mr Forever". "Forever" is not my last name.
Quote from: Sforzando on June 19, 2008, 06:27:51 PMI know.
And never you forget it.
QuoteM is not a person, neither the third nor the first. M is a state of being, elevated, removed, elusive, forever.
Thus sayeth the Lord.
Quote from: Sforzando on June 19, 2008, 05:12:59 PM
I went through the score of the Berg Op. 6 twice and could not find a low A for the basses. Perhaps Mr. Forever is thinking of my example from Wozzeck.
me, too....... must be Wozzeck then- although i don't have the orchestra score to that, so i couldn't check.
Quote from: M forever on June 19, 2008, 05:34:19 PM
It's not "Mr Forever". "Forever" is not my last name, it is an extension of the essential M-ness described by the letter M into the sphere of timelessness (therefore "forever"). You can call me "Mr M" though if you want. But just "M" is OK, too, after all we are among friends here (I think).
Anyway, it's been a looooooong time that I played the 3 pieces but I thought I remembered that low A clearly. But I could be mistaken. There are at least 2 different versions or editions of the pieces though, so maybe it only occurs in one of these. Or I am wrong after all. But I could swear there is a note lower than the B ("H" in German) there somewhere in one of Berg's works. Or was it in one of Schönberg's? Hmm... I do remember specifically that I played a piece from the era once and it necessitated tuning the 5th string down. Sorry, I don't have many scores and none of these, so I can't look for that myself.
I'll look at the score when I can get to the library and see if there's anything in there. I can't imagine a B string tuned down a whole step sounding any good! It could be a printing error. I have a copy of the Brandenberg Concertos published by Dover which is a reprinting of the Bach-Gesellschaft from about 1870 and in the violone part they wrote a low B-flat simply an octave down from the cello. I don't know if Bach even intended a bass instrument to play in this piece (period instrument groups tend to leave the bass out), but there was definitely no string that could handle a low B-flat with any success in Bach's day!
Quote from: paul on June 20, 2008, 06:17:23 PM
I'll look at the score when I can get to the library and see if there's anything in there. I can't imagine a B string tuned down a whole step sounding any good! It could be a printing error. I have a copy of the Brandenberg Concertos published by Dover which is a reprinting of the Bach-Gesellschaft from about 1870 and in the violone part they wrote a low B-flat simply an octave down from the cello. I don't know if Bach even intended a bass instrument to play in this piece (period instrument groups tend to leave the bass out), but there was definitely no string that could handle a low B-flat with any success in Bach's day!
No doubt you mean the very last note in 6, which could have been easily taken by the cembalo player at sounding pitch. But what is normal practice here if a bass is used? do they just shift the last note up an octave?
Quote from: paul on June 20, 2008, 06:17:23 PM
I'll look at the score when I can get to the library and see if there's anything in there. I can't imagine a B string tuned down a whole step sounding any good!
Depends on the instrument. If it is big enough, it can sound good.
Quote from: paul on June 20, 2008, 06:17:23 PM
I have a copy of the Brandenberg Concertos published by Dover which is a reprinting of the Bach-Gesellschaft from about 1870 and in the violone part they wrote a low B-flat simply an octave down from the cello. I don't know if Bach even intended a bass instrument to play in this piece (period instrument groups tend to leave the bass out), but there was definitely no string that could handle a low B-flat with any success in Bach's day!
Which concerto are you talking about? If it says "violone" it basically means a bass, or a string instrument which can play in the same range (since there was no standard bass at the time, and for a long time afterwards). BTW, there is no low Bflat on the cello either.
Quote from: M forever on June 20, 2008, 10:01:56 PM
Which concerto are you talking about? If it says "violone" it basically means a bass, or a string instrument which can play in the same range (since there was no standard bass at the time, and for a long time afterwards). BTW, there is no low Bflat on the cello either.
Not that I necessarily expect you to read every post in a discussion, any more than I expect Paul to believe two of us who have already said there's no low A in the Berg op. 6, but here's the passage I already identified in the post above:
Quote from: M forever on June 20, 2008, 10:01:56 PM
Which concerto are you talking about? If it says "violone" it basically means a bass, or a string instrument which can play in the same range (since there was no standard bass at the time, and for a long time afterwards). BTW, there is no low Bflat on the cello either.
It's number 6 and I'm well aware.
Sforzando, in later editions that I've looked at the last five notes are up an octave in the bass part, but most groups opt out of using a bass in this one. It's probably for the better, the first movement is a killer to play because of how repetitive it is.
Quote from: paul on June 21, 2008, 06:11:59 AM
in later editions that I've looked at the last five notes are up an octave in the bass part, but most groups opt out of using a bass in this one. It's probably for the better, the first movement is a killer to play because of how repetitive it is.
Huh? Should our criterion for what and how we play music be if it tires some people to play it or not? The concerti are all relatively short anyway, no big deal at all in comparison to works like Bach's passions or the Christmas oratorio where the bass plays almost continuously for a very long time, or some stuff like Mahler 2 or some of the more massive operas. Should we play all these without basses from now on because some bass players can't cut it?
Quote from: M forever on June 21, 2008, 01:30:14 PM
Huh? Should our criterion for what and how we play music be if it tires some people to play it or not? The concerti are all relatively short anyway, no big deal at all in comparison to works like Bach's passions or the Christmas oratorio where the bass plays almost continuously for a very long time, or some stuff like Mahler 2 or some of the more massive operas. Should we play all these without basses from now on because some bass players can't cut it?
You should stop reading everything so seriously. Of course that is not what I am saying.
Explain then.
By not using a bass in a performance, the bass player is spared playing the part (I should actually mention the middle of the second movement has a quite beautiful continuo part for a moment). Said in a light hearted, ha-ha manner. Why would I want bass players to not play parts in pieces like the Bach passions, Christmas oratorio, and Mahler 2? The bass is specifically scored to these parts and is extremely important no matter how repetitive or minimal the part can be. A violone instrument isn't even necessary scored in this concerto.
Quote from: paul on June 21, 2008, 01:58:01 PM
By not using a bass in a performance, the bass player is spared playing the part (I should actually mention the middle of the second movement has a quite beautiful continuo part for a moment). Said in a light hearted, ha-ha manner. Why would I want bass players to not play parts in pieces like the Bach passions, Christmas oratorio, and Mahler 2? The bass is specifically scored to these parts and is extremely important no matter how repetitive or minimal the part is. A violone instrument isn't even necessary scored in this concerto.
Why would that be a good thing? This is great music and fun to play. More fun to play than to just sit there and watch others play.
Quote from: paul on June 21, 2008, 01:58:01 PM
Why would I want bass players to not play parts in pieces like the Bach passions, Christmas oratorio, and Mahler 2? The bass is specifically scored to these parts and is extremely important no matter how repetitive or minimal the part can be.
The bass parts in none of these pieces are particularly repetitive, and they are far from being "minimal". They are really taxing to play. That was my point. I don't think that should matter - either people can play them then they can participate, or not, then they can go home.
Do you ever get bored picking fights over such trivial matters with strangers on the internet? You seem to do this in every thread on this board.
This is not a fight. I am just tring to better understand your point and I am giving my opinions in return. Why are you getting aggressive now?
Quote from: paul on June 21, 2008, 01:58:01 PM
...A violone instrument isn't even necessary scored in this concerto.
Say what? I see six parts in the above-given score page, and according to the program notes by Karl Geiringer on my LP Brandenburg set with the Chamber Orchestra of Basel, a
violone is specifically indicated in the instrumentation given in Bach's original manuscript. However, from some of the things I've read, I've gotten the impression that bass viols, or rather contrabass viols, from that time could have anywhere from three to six strings-- Perhaps M can enlighten us as to how true that is...
And a challenging part like this is more likely to draw a good instrumentalist in than scare him/her away. We tend to enjoy mastering challenging parts. I may complain about having no rests in Beethoven's Ninth, but the music is so compelling I'm willing to suffer exhaustion doing it. :D
Quote from: M forever on June 21, 2008, 02:13:29 PM
This is not a fight. I am just tring to better understand your point and I am giving my opinions in return. Why are you getting aggressive now?
Quote from: M forever on June 21, 2008, 02:03:10 PM
Why would that be a good thing? This is great music and fun to play. More fun to play than to just sit there and watch others play.
The bass parts in none of these pieces are particularly repetitive, and they are far from being "minimal". They are really taxing to play. That was my point. I don't think that should matter - either people can play them then they can participate, or not, then they can go home.
It's your tone. You "sound" irritated, or annoyed, constantly. Especially when the first question is "why"? If you aren't actually irritated, you could use a smiley or two, or write in any other way so people won't interpret you as "stand-offish". Unless that's how you want to appear to be, but i don't think that is your intention.
Quote from: paul on June 20, 2008, 06:17:23 PM
I'll look at the score when I can get to the library and see if there's anything in there. I can't imagine a B string tuned down a whole step sounding any good!
Of course it can! Especially with a bunch of other low-tuned instruments- huge rumbles can sound EEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVVILLLLLLLLLLL !!!! >:D >:D >:D
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on June 22, 2008, 05:47:34 AM
You "sound" irritated, or annoyed, constantly. Especially when the first question is "why"?
Yes, I can see how asking someone "why" is a sign of being annoyed. ::)
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on June 22, 2008, 05:47:34 AM
It's your tone. You "sound" irritated, or annoyed, constantly. Especially when the first question is "why"? If you aren't actually irritated, you could use a smiley or two, or write in any other way so people won't interpret you as "stand-offish". Unless that's how you want to appear to be, but i don't think that is your intention.
Why is 'why' such a bad question?
Obligatory smileys so you know I'm not irritated: ;D ;D
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on June 22, 2008, 05:47:34 AM
It's your tone. You "sound" irritated, or annoyed, constantly. Especially when the first question is "why"? If you aren't actually irritated, you could use a smiley or two, or write in any other way so people won't interpret you as "stand-offish". Unless that's how you want to appear to be, but i don't think that is your intention.
Why? Don't you see how unbearably absurd that would be? The mere thought of
M forever smiling made my blood run cold! 0:)
Well, after all, sharks and dragons both don't have the ability to smile.
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on July 02, 2008, 12:56:47 PM
Well, after all, sharks and dragons both don't have the ability to smile.
(http://animeoltre.altervista.org/pers/jabberjaw.jpg)
Just to revive the old basses-tuning-down discussion, I'm aware of occasions on which the basses are asked to tune down for a low B, but I've never seen anything like this, until now - a piece in which half the basses tune their whole instrument a fourth below usual for the whole piece! :o I'm not sure how truly necessary it is, mind you, nor how practicable - M can enlighten us here. This is Bantock's Hebridean Symphony, anyway:
Quote from: M forever on June 19, 2008, 05:34:19 PM
It's not "Mr Forever". "Forever" is not my last name, it is an extension of the essential M-ness described by the letter M into the sphere of timelessness (therefore "forever"). You can call me "Mr M" though if you want. But just "M" is OK, too, after all we are among friends here (I think).
(http://frontiereditor.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/halloween-costumes-m.jpg)
(http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReviews5/dialmformurder/ttile.JPG)
Quote from: lukeottevanger on July 09, 2008, 12:43:35 PM
Just to revive the old basses-tuning-down discussion, I'm aware of occasions on which the basses are asked to tune down for a low B, but I've never seen anything like this, until now - a piece in which half the basses tune their whole instrument a fourth below usual for the whole piece! :o I'm not sure how truly necessary it is, mind you, nor how practicable - M can enlighten us here. This is Bantock's Hebridean Symphony, anyway:
That's nonsense. It doesn't work. If you tune the strings down that much, they will be very slack and have no sound, maybe even lie on the fingerboard. It should be possible to *move* the strings up, D string to replace the G, the A the D, etc, and then add an H string. I don't know when that was written, but earlier in the 20th century, actual H strings were rarely made and hard to get, so sometimes they used piano strings (!) to get a string which is thick and strong enough to keep the pitch and produce a good sound rather than a farting noise, but my old bass teacher told me they were extremely hard to play, as were gut H strings, so they were really happy when steel strings (with a gut core and steel wound around them) became available.
Bantock's Hebridean Symphony dates from 1915. On Luke's score example it says: MCMXX (1920).
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5947.0;attach=10560;image)
Well, if this sample is any indication of what the Bass II part is for the entire piece, it wouldn't really matter how the instruments were tuned. ;D
Quote from: Szykniej on July 10, 2008, 07:56:52 AM
Well, if this sample is any indication of what the Bass II part is for the entire piece, it wouldn't really matter how the instruments were tuned.
Your logic is remorseless. ;D
Quote from: M forever on July 10, 2008, 06:16:48 AM
...It should be possible to *move* the strings up, D string to replace the G, the A the D, etc, and then add an H string....
I'm of the opinion that this must be what Bantock meant: he was too consumate a professional not to know that strings can't be slackened to the extent otherwise implied. Possibly in restringing four string instruments downwards like this he was trying to find a solution to a paucity of five-string basses - but you, with your knowledge of the history of such things, would know how likely that is more than I would. I also note that he says 'the basses should be tuned....', not 'the basses should be retuned....'. This itself tends to imply restringing more than retuning the existing strings.
Luke, could you possibly post a section of the score where the low basses are actually playing? I'm curious to see if Bantock merely has them providing pedal tones or has them playing moving parts.
Quote from: Szykniej on July 10, 2008, 05:00:06 PM
Luke, could you possibly post a section of the score where the low basses are actually playing? I'm curious to see if Bantock merely has them providing pedal tones or has them playing moving parts.
Well, I just looked through the whole score and this is rather curious - the lower basses do occasionally venture below the normal E, but rarely - and unless I've missed something, which is very likely indeed as I was scrolling quite fast, there isn't a low B in there! Low C is the lowest I saw.... ??? ??? Mostly, however, they are doubling the upper part - which is odd in itself if one thinks about it, and I suggest that Bantock may not have thought this through as much as he should have done! In fact I may even retract my earlier post where I said he was 'too consummate a professional to.....' Again, M will know better than I would, but I image that a passage like this is hard hard enough on an ordinary bass, let alone one with it's top string replaced by one a fourth lower. And though this is the most extreme I saw, it's not unusual in type....
It still makes more sense to tune the lowest string to H because the fingering is easier and more logical than when it is on C (because then all strings are fourths apart).
The high passages in the example would indeed be extremely difficult and unrewarding to play on an instrument with no G string. One would have to climb up very far on the D string and the pizzicato doesn't necessarily sound good there. I don't think Bantock really knew what he was doing. There are visionary and challenging orchestrations which are difficult to play but make sense and good effect, and then there is amateurish writing. Like this. But it doesn't matter anyway, because that composer is rarely ever performed, even in England.
Quote from: lukeottevanger on July 09, 2008, 10:53:25 PM
(http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReviews5/dialmformurder/ttile.JPG)
I watched that in the movie theater a few weeks ago - in awesome 3D! That was during a little classic 3D films festival in a theater here in Boston. Actually, my boss and me had set up the projection equipment for that (this movie was released in a 3D process where you have two projectors running in parallel, one for the left and one for the right eye, and polarized light filters, so while you still have to wear polarized glasses, it looks much better than most other 3D processes and is in color; we achieved perfect synchronization by driving both projectors with a master and two slave frequency inverters).
The lowest note of an instrument is defined by the physics of the instrument, ie the tubing length and bore. As such, the contrabassoon cannot play lower than an A or B flat. The lowest open note (no valves pressed) tuba is the bottom C on the piano. Most orchestral tubas are pitched in C. Of course by pressing valves, the pitch lowers. By depressing all 5 or 6 valves the pitch drops about an octave depending on the math of the valves. Thus many orchestral tubas have notes as low as the C below the bottom of the piano. I make no judgment about the quality of the sounds since that was not the question
Quote from: Ddillon on February 07, 2016, 01:49:29 PM
The lowest note of an instrument is defined by the physics of the instrument, ie the tubing length and bore. As such, the contrabassoon cannot play lower than an A or B flat. The lowest open note (no valves pressed) tuba is the bottom C on the piano. Most orchestral tubas are pitched in C. Of course by pressing valves, the pitch lowers. By depressing all 5 or 6 valves the pitch drops about an octave depending on the math of the valves. Thus many orchestral tubas have notes as low as the C below the bottom of the piano. I make no judgment about the quality of the sounds since that was not the question
Good comment. How close does that low C (16 Hz) come to the threshold of audibility?
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on March 02, 2016, 08:14:53 PM
Good comment. How close does that low C (16 Hz) come to the threshold of audibility?
For most folks, that fundamental pitch is right on the edge if not below audibility. However, there are harmonics and overtones present in the sound of all musical instruments (except possibly hand chimes that produce a near-sine wave) that render the sound entirely audible even if your physical hearing cannot pick up the low fundamental.