Coronavirus thread

[Que]

Government is always inefficient. Therefore it is useful only when non governmental means are even less efficient.   That is not ideology. It's a fact for which we have millenia of history to provide confirming data.

I'm sorry, but you have been brainwashed....

"Unity makes strength" was the motto of the Dutch Republic.

And in a democratic society, governement can be the exponent and forceful tool of that unity.

Q

[JBS]

I'm sorry, but you have been brainwashed....

"Unity makes strength" was the motto of the Dutch Republic.

And in a democratic society, governement can be the exponent and forceful tool of that unity.

Q

That motto could have been used by any dictator, you know.

Government was necessary to get rid of the Spanish, build the dikes and drain the polders. But because it is necessary for some things does not mean it is necessary for other things.

[JBS]

     It's efficient for government to do the things we ask government to do. It's more inefficient to leave them undone.

     I view government as the means by which private action can be most profitable. Its efficiency must be measured accordingly. Jobs, wages, profits and other measures of advancement should include the government contribution. The most advanced economies have large government sectors relative to basic functions like agriculture and manufacturing. I see that as an efficient use of resources. If we all were employed as farmers, factory workers and mechanics we'd be a poor country. No rich country is like that. One has to conclude that measuring government as inefficient is missing something very big, and since it's in plain sight that rich countries have large government sectors, one must find the source of the mis-measurement.

     Government builds the platforms on which private industries can efficiently run. The tendency is to attribute efficiency to the private contribution that follows on what government builds.

Perhaps rich countries would be richer with smaller government sectors...

[Que]

That motto could have been used by any dictator, you know.

They could use it, but I haven't seen a dictator that really unites people other than in fear.

Government was necessary to get rid of the Spanish, build the dikes and drain the polders. But because it is necessary for some things does not mean it is necessary for other things.

Like security, prosperity and peaceful coexistence? 

You are right that our view of the concept of government is shaped by our respective histories.
But keep in mind that I also live on a continent that was brought to the brink of destruction by dictatorships - twice.

I'm just not sure if a distrust in government out of fear of dictatorship is going to be helpful to tackle present day world's problems or is sufficient to shape a modern society.

If you live in a functional democracy, you should be able to trust your own government.
IMO governement is not the issue to focus on, democracy is.

Q

[Florestan]

I also live on a continent that was brought to the brink of destruction by dictatorships - twice.

One is WWII, for sure. What is the other?

[71 dB]

Government is always inefficient.

Depends on how wisely the people have voted. When your inefficient government finally gets Covid-19 in control and EU allows US citizens to enter, you are welcome to Finland to see yourself how goverment can function pretty efficiently.

[Florestan]

Courage!

Thanks, Karl.

[MusicTurner]

Have you been abroad?

That motto could have been used by any dictator, you know.

Government was necessary to get rid of the Spanish, build the dikes and drain the polders. But because it is necessary for some things does not mean it is necessary for other things.

Have you been abroad? I'm seriously interested in this, because you don't seem to know how a real lot of countries function and evolve. Or are your entries just examples of joking, polemical Utopianism?

[JBS]

.

Like security, prosperity and peaceful coexistence? 

You are right that our view of the concept of government is shaped by our respective histories.
But keep in mind that I also live on a continent that was brought to the brink of destruction by dictatorships - twice.

I'm just not sure if a distrust in government out of fear of dictatorship is going to be helpful to tackle present day world's problems or is sufficient to shape a modern society.

If you live in a functional democracy, you should be able to trust your own government.
IMO governement is not the issue to focus on, democracy is.

Q

In a truly functional democracy, government would be perpetually distrusted, to make sure it is doing what it is supposed to be doing, and nothing else.

And it's an old truism in political thought. Government can not provide "security, prosperity and peaceful coexistence". It can only provide the conditions that allow the public at large to become secure, prosperous, and peaceful.

[JBS]

Have you been abroad? I'm seriously interested in this, because you don't seem to know how a real lot of countries function and evolve. Or are your entries just examples of joking, polemical Utopianism?

Somewhat, as a tourist. So the internal politics and government of the place I was wasn't at the forefront.

But the principles are the same everywhere. Some things can only be done by the government (like police and army). Some things are done by government but could be done by private companies, but it's more efficient to have government do it. Others are done by government, but only because people are used to government doing it.  The second category is more limited, the third category much larger, than people generally realize.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Thanks, Karl.

Deep breaths Florestan.  I'm sorry to hear that it's been rough for you lately; I suspect that we all have good and bad moments or days these days in particular.  So much news to digest....a lot of which is bad.  Can be a struggle to stay positive.  Hard to figure out what to do and/or if one can help things and if so, how.  And if figured out, finding the energy, spirit and strength to do so.  In any event, it's brutal emotionally and physically.  I think that we all get that here.  Sorry, I'm probably not saying this well...I certainly don't want to make it sound 'trite' because it isn't.

You're not alone. 

Warm wishes,

PD

[Florestan]

Deep breaths Florestan.  I'm sorry to hear that it's been rough for you lately; I suspect that we all have good and bad moments or days these days in particular.  So much news to digest....a lot of which is bad.  Can be a struggle to stay positive.  Hard to figure out what to do and/or if one can help things and if so, how.  And if figured out, finding the energy, spirit and strength to do so.  In any event, it's brutal emotionally and physically.  I think that we all get that here.  Sorry, I'm probably not saying this well...I certainly don't want to make it sound 'trite' because it isn't.

You're not alone. 

Warm wishes,

PD

Thank you for your kind words, PD. All the best to you too.

[Florestan]

But the principles are the same everywhere. Some things can only be done by the government (like police and army).

You forgot to mention justice.

Some things are done by government but could be done by private companies, but it's more efficient to have government do it.

Such as?

Others are done by government, but only because people are used to government doing it. 

Such as?

I am not being provocative here, mind you. Although not a libertarian, I am not a statist either (although as a Yurpean, my degree of statism might be greater than that of a Murican). I ask because I am genuinely interested in your thoughts on these matters.

[JBS]

You forgot to mention justice.

Such as?

Such as?

I am not being provocative here, mind you. Although not a libertarian, I am not a statist either (although as a Yurpean, my degree of statism might be greater than that of a Murican). I ask because I am genuinely interested in your thoughts on these matters.

Stuff it's more efficient for Government to do, but private could do: streets and roads
Stuff government does only because we're used to government doing it: mail

But we're going way off topic here...

[Florestan]

Stuff it's more efficient for Government to do, but private could do: streets and roads

Well, it might be more efficient for the US government to do streets and roads, but the Romanian government is dirt lousy in this respect. It could take seven long years to build a traffic bridge or an underground traffic passage (I know that from personal experience) --- and don't think they're done by any governmental company because there are none: everything is done by private companies who compete for being given the work, and it implies lots of bribes (which raise the cost) and lots of delays (because of the ensuing lawsuits).

No, really, I mean it: the Romanian traffic infrastructure is probably the worse in the whole Eastern Europe and if the curses of drivers, both civil and commercial, are anything to go by, all Romanian ministers of transportation since 1990 until present will burn in hell. 

Stuff government does only because we're used to government doing it: mail

I don't know about USA, but in Romania if I have to send a package to someone I never use the governmental postal service, only private ones. Ditto for ordering stuff online, I prefer private through and through --- it's much faster, safer and customer-friendly than the governmental one.

So you see, as I told drogulus before: the USA is not the whole world and what works wonders there might not work at all in another spot or viceversa. 

[Karl Henning]

Well, it might be more efficient for the US government to do streets and roads, but the Romanian government is dirt lousy in this respect. It could take seven long years to build a traffic bridge or an underground traffic passage (I know that from personal experience) --- and don't think they're done by any governmental company because there are none: everything is done by private companies who compete for being given the work, and it implies lots of bribes (which raise the cost) and lots of delays (because of the ensuing lawsuits).

No, really, I mean it: the Romanian traffic infrastructure is probably the worse in the whole Eastern Europe and if the curses of drivers, both civil and commercial, are anything to go by, all Romanian ministers of transportation since 1990 until present will burn in hell. 

I don't know about USA, but in Romania if I have to send a package to someone I never use the governmental postal service, only private ones. Ditto for ordering stuff online, I prefer private through and through --- it's much faster, safer and customer-friendly than the governmental one.

So you see, as I told drogulus before: the USA is not the whole world and what works wonders there might not work at all in another spot or viceversa. 

Yes, but Americans are used to the Government doing the mail, because the Postal Service was authorized by the US Constitution.

[Florestan]

Yes, but Americans are used to the Government doing the mail, because the Postal Service was authorized by the US Constitution.

I know that --- but is there really no private postal service at all in the US? 

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I know that --- but is there really no private postal service at all in the US? 

There are various delivery companies like Federal Express and United Parcel Services (like for packages or overnight letter/document services), but no alternate mail service per se...like for inexpensive letter, bill or magazine deliveries.  The USPS (United States Postal Service aka US Mail) does also have expedited services too.

PD

p.s.  It's currently 55 cents to send a letter, bill, card at the moment (presuming that it's under a certain weight and is not an unusual sized one).  There are discounts for sending mass mailings (like catalogues and magazines) and also a lower media mail rate (for things like books).

[Karl Henning]

I know that --- but is there really no private postal service at all in the US? 

Interesting question, since at this point FedEx and UPS are both publicly traded stocks. But, they are not government entities.

[Florestan]

There are various delivery companies like Federal Express and United Parcel Services (like for packages or overnight letter/document services), but no alternate mail service per se...like for inexpensive letter, bill or magazine deliveries.  T

But, but... with e-mail and phone being instant and free I do wonder who sends letters by post anymore? 

A postal service for packages and online order deliveries, useful alright --- but for letters proper? This sounds like Paleozoic to me.