Coronavirus thread

[Biffo]

You seem to forget that Zeneca exported their vaccins to England, which were meant for the Netherlands and other European countries, just so that Johnson could make a big gesture to his voters. I sit very close to to the source were this is common knowledge. And by the way they also block all the Zeneca vaccins to Europe.

I bow to your superior knowledge and will comment no further.

[Mandryka]

Why? Only a few days ago Ireland was begging for AZ vaccines from the US; they were turned down. If the US had given them the one million doses they wanted do you think they would now be refusing to use them. There have been no more cases of blood clots in Ireland or anywhere else but now Germany has joined in the 'me too' hysteria. Good luck to them. I am waiting for my second AZ vaccination, due in around six weeks.

Because that article suggests that we're seeing something much rarer than Deep Vein Thrombosis, maybe disseminated intravascular clotting.

[Mandryka]

Whether the concerns about AstraZeneca are in the end proven to be objectively justified or not, after months of back-and-forth on effectiveness and side effects its reputation is now effectively dead.

That would be a catastrophe for Europe!

[Mandryka]

You seem to forget that Zeneca exported their vaccins to England, which were meant for the Netherlands and other European countries, just so that Johnson could make a big gesture to his voters. I sit very close to to the source were this is common knowledge. And by the way they also block all the Zeneca vaccins to Europe.

Is there any evidence for this, other than your testimony?

[Que]

That would be a catastrophe for Europe!

I'm actually surprised by this turn of events. Noises on AstraZeneca were positive again a few weeks ago, and now this!
If the vaccine would be out of the race, it would be bad news indeed. As I said, I think there could be no coming back from this... unfortunately.... But public trust is critical.

I'm also sorry to see that this whole incident is connecting to anti-EU sentiments. We're not the enemy, despite what the UK govt and the tabloids want the UK public to believe.

But all might not be lost yet. Pfizer and Moderna are ramping up production and the vaccine by Johnson & Johnson (Janssen) is a latecomer that seems very promising: a single shot that doesn't need deep freeze conditions with a high success rate and little and mild side effects.

In several months we'll have sufficient vaccines to vaccinate the entire EU population many times over.

Q

[Harry]

Is there any evidence for this, other than your testimony?

Yes of course.

[Todd]

I've been reading stories of Covid protests in Spain, Greece, France, and now the Netherlands.  What has happened to Europe? 

[Que]

Benefits of Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine outweigh any risk, says EMA

From a scientific and policy perspective such a position makes perfect sense.

But it's not the message people that are asked to take the vaccine want to hear....


And:

Europe's caution over Oxford vaccine about more than the science

Interesting quote:

"But the other factor in deciding on suspension could even be supply. In the UK, there are plentiful stocks. In Europe, there are not. AstraZeneca has just cut its proposed deliveries again, down to 30m doses in the first quarter, which is about a third of what was originally promised. Suspending the vaccine is easier in Europe if it is not available in great quantities anyway."

Looks like AstraZeneca's has dug its own grave with its supply policies, at least its position in the EU.

[Holden]

Any medication carries the risk of side effects. To stop vaccinating because a miniscule percentage of the population might get a possible (as yet unproved) reaction is simply dumb! Allergic reactions to penicillin are well known but it proved to be a wonder drug. (I am one of those with the allergy). Should it have been stopped because of those reactions. Of course not. The alternatives didn't bear thinking about.

I've always been aware of the 'luck of the draw' aspect to life. Life is a lottery and it can end so quickly. How do you know that your next car trip won't involve an unavoidable (by you) accident that ends your life. You don't.

[Que]

People's behaviour is not rational.

Everybody knows, or should know, that participating in traffic is one of the most dangerous daily activities.
But that doesn't stop anybody, because they need to go places. Using train or bus is saver than driving. Yet, even if there is a choice, most will drive their own car. The airplane is one of the safest modes of transportation, yet many people are deadly  afraid of flying.

How appealing does this really sound?

"Here is a vaccine. Looking at various risks you are wise to take it, but you might die because of it."

And we are asking healthy young people to take the vaccine as well.
A group that runs a very low risk by the disease. Perhaps a risk still higher than from taking the vaccine, but it will probably not perceived as such

Q

[Mandryka]

We need to know how serious these unwanted events are, and who's getting them. They may be very serious and they may be only with younger people (under 50) I notice that the Norwegian government issued this

People under the age of 50 who have received the AstraZeneca vaccine and feel increasingly unwell more than three days after vaccination, and who notice larger or smaller blue spots in the skin (skin haemorrhages) must consult a doctor or out-of-hours medical service as soon as possible.

https://www.fhi.no/en/news/2021/norwegian-medicines-agency-notified-of-blood-clots-and-bleeding-in-younger-/

It sounds to me as though the reaction the Norwegians are seeing is quite rare but extremely serious. And the problem is in under 50s.

Just a question for medics - how common are skin legions in under 50s? I mean, are Norwegian doctors going to be inundated with false alarms? If so, either they've goofed issuing that or they are very worried indeed.

[Mandryka]

The Uk has not released any info about these AZ incidents in Britain. I would be surprised if they have not occurred.

Question: are they right to keep it under a hat?

[Mandryka]

Some more details about what the complications with AZ are

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/mar/16/coronavirus-live-news-keep-using-astrazenecaoxford-vaccine-says-who

This type of cerebral vein throbosis in combination with a hemolytic-uremic syndrome phenomenon is so rare that it can probably be traced back to the vaccination," . . .

"The additional cases are of the order of magnitude that they could affect one in 250,000 - 350,000 people," Lauterbach said. It is a serious complication, he added, "but you can usually take action against this complication during treatment."

[prémont]

Just a question for medics - how common are skin legions in under 50s? I mean, are Norwegian doctors going to be inundated with false alarms? If so, either they've goofed issuing that or they are very worried indeed.

Spontaneous skin bleedings are rare and indicate usually some often serious underlying patological cause.

[Irons]

I'm actually surprised by this turn of events. Noises on AstraZeneca were positive again a few weeks ago, and now this!
If the vaccine would be out of the race, it would be bad news indeed. As I said, I think there could be no coming back from this... unfortunately.... But public trust is critical.

I'm also sorry to see that this whole incident is connecting to anti-EU sentiments. We're not the enemy, despite what the UK govt and the tabloids want the UK public to believe.

But all might not be lost yet. Pfizer and Moderna are ramping up production and the vaccine by Johnson & Johnson (Janssen) is a latecomer that seems very promising: a single shot that doesn't need deep freeze conditions with a high success rate and little and mild side effects.

In several months we'll have sufficient vaccines to vaccinate the entire EU population many times over.

Q

Blimey Que I am beginning to think you have a problem. I thought the same thing only the complete opposite. The good folk in the EU are bashing AZ for political reasons and to cover up their own inadequacies. But common sense prevailed and I dismissed the thought. Perhaps you should do the same?

[Que]

Blimey Que I am beginning to think you have a problem. I thought the same thing only the complete opposite. The good folk in the EU are bashing AZ for political reasons and to cover up their own inadequacies. But common sense prevailed and I dismissed the thought. Perhaps you should do the same?

I don't see how you can blame me for sentiments expressed by others?

[Mandryka]

https://twitter.com/olivernmoody/status/1371822984000847874?s=21

An interesting account of what prompted Germany to suspend AZ.

[André]

Any medication carries the risk of side effects. To stop vaccinating because a miniscule percentage of the population might get a possible (as yet unproved) reaction is simply dumb! Allergic reactions to penicillin are well known but it proved to be a wonder drug. (I am one of those with the allergy). Should it have been stopped because of those reactions. Of course not. The alternatives didn't bear thinking about.

I've always been aware of the 'luck of the draw' aspect to life. Life is a lottery and it can end so quickly. How do you know that your next car trip won't involve an unavoidable (by you) accident that ends your life. You don't.

+1

The vaccine suspension created and now feeds a spiral of fear. More countries suspend because other countries have done it, not because of proven ill-effects. Governments fear they might be perceived as reckless if they don't suspend the AZ vaccine - and see their polls go down as a result. The net result is that global vaccination is slowed, meaning more deaths from Covid than might have been feared - a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Mandryka]

Well they've suspended to give the scientists the chance to assess the risk, in the light of these new events. And given that the events are very serious, and that the EMA should report on Thursday,  I think they were right. For one thing, if individuals aren't fully informed, how can they make a decision about whether to be vaccinated or not? And for another, without the scientists' considered guidance, how can states decide who to offer the vaccines to?

It's not just a matter of the consequentialist calculation of "more deaths" that André refers to, it's also a matter of individuals being put into a position where they can make the best choices for themselves.

[Irons]

I don't see how you can blame me for sentiments expressed by others?

OK, but sentiments that fit your narrative.