All About Streaming Music Services

[DavidW]

(At some level it is galling that after I've spend decades amassing a large collection of classical music, someone can pay $15 per month and effectively have a bigger collection than I do. I guess that is the psychology behind streaming resistance.)

Could be worse!  I had a friend that devoted an enormous amount of time taping and cataloguing their favorite tv shows only to have it made irrelevant with bargain dvd releases and then later with hd streaming.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I understand that temptation since I lived that way for years.  But I've also seen some of my favorite music come and go.  Certainly I don't need to blind buy music anymore (well excepting Simpson's string quartets).  Just for the sake of discovery, exploration and convenience streaming wins.  But buying favorites that I know are mine without paying a monthly fee is also worth it.

I just settled in a happy equilibrium of the two.  I do feel bad for the posters that just refuse to stream, they really don't know what they're missing.

Are there any streaming services that also allow you to purchase the music too (and in a good lossless format)?

I believe that part of my issue would be trying to find a way that I could hook it up to my good stereo system (and also not having to spend a ton of money to do that).

PD

[Spotted Horses]

Are there any streaming services that also allow you to purchase the music too (and in a good lossless format)?

I believe that part of my issue would be trying to find a way that I could hook it up to my good stereo system (and also not having to spend a ton of money to do that).

PD

Qobuz allows you to purchase tracks that you can download as lossless files to your hard disc (or listen to on their app without a subscription). I don't subscribe to their streaming service, but I have purchased from their download store (and the prestoclassical download store).

You just need a DAC to send high quality audio from your computer to your amplifier. I have this one.

https://www.schiit.com/products/modi-plus

If you purchase (and don't just stream) you'd also need a big hard drive (probably and external USB drive, and at least one spare for backup) to store audio files.

[Spotted Horses]

What pushed me over the edge was seeing the "lossless" icon in Apple Music. Until then I never considered using it for anything other than pop music.

I have never found hi-rez made any difference, but the idea of degrading sound quality, even to a supposedly unimportant extent, just to save on file size didn't sit well with me.

And I actually find it makes a difference in some cases. I was listening to the Bacewicz/Kupeic recording of piano music and at one point I heard some distortion. I looked in my Apple Music preferences dialog and found that the "lossless" checkbox was unchecked. I activated lossless and the distortion went away. It's not a new recording and maybe the compressed version was made some time ago when the algorithms were not as good as now, but why risk it?

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Qobuz allows you to purchase tracks that you can download as lossless files to your hard disc (or listen to on their app without a subscription). I don't subscribe to their streaming service, but I have purchased from their download store (and the prestoclassical download store).

You just need a DAC to send high quality audio from your computer to your amplifier. I have this one.

https://www.schiit.com/products/modi-plus

If you purchase (and don't just stream) you'd also need a big hard drive (probably and external USB drive, and at least one spare for backup) to store audio files.

So, if I'm understanding their description correctly, I would use their USB cable to hook it up to my computer?  Note:  I currently just have 2.0 USB ports.

And how would I hook it up to my stereo system?

PD

[Spotted Horses]

So, if I'm understanding their description correctly, I would use their USB cable to hook it up to my computer?  Note:  I currently just have 2.0 USB ports.

And how would I hook it up to my stereo system?

PD

I think USB 2.0 is more than fast enough. Audio data rates are pretty low, relatively speaking.

It has RCA connectors on the back, so you would connect it to your amplifier just as you would an old-school CD player.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I think USB 2.0 is more than fast enough. Audio data rates are pretty low, relatively speaking.

It has RCA connectors on the back, so you would connect it to your amplifier just as you would an old-school CD player.

Thanks.  I reread the specs and saw under "output" that it had mentioned RCA cables.  Nice that it doesn't require a power source if hooked up with USB to a computer.

What sort of things would you attach to it using either a coaxial digital or optical inputs?

I suspect that my biggest conundrum would be:  How do I hook up (move?) my computer so that it's close enough to my stereo?  Or how long could the RCA cables be without messing up the sound?

And thank you for your help and thoughts! 

PD

[Spotted Horses]

Thanks.  I reread the specs and saw under "output" that it had mentioned RCA cables.  Nice that it doesn't require a power source if hooked up with USB to a computer.

What sort of things would you attach to it using either a coaxial digital or optical inputs?

I suspect that my biggest conundrum would be:  How do I hook up (move?) my computer so that it's close enough to my stereo?  Or how long could the RCA cables be without messing up the sound?

And thank you for your help and thoughts! 

PD

I think the maximum recommended length for a USB 2.0 cable is 5m (16 ft). I have not used RCA cables longer than 6 ft, but I don't know what the recommended limit is. I think I have used a 20 ft TOSLINK optical cable in the past. The signal chain was computer -> USB cable -> USB/TOSLINK converter -> optical cable -> DAC -> RCA cable -> receiver.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I think the maximum recommended length for a USB 2.0 cable is 5m (16 ft). I have not used RCA cables longer than 6 ft, but I don't know what the recommended limit is. I think I have used a 20 ft TOSLINK optical cable in the past. The signal chain was computer -> USB cable -> USB/TOSLINK converter -> optical cable -> DAC -> RCA cable -> receiver.

Thanks.  I'll do a bit more research.  The place where I'm thinking of shifting my iMac to (on top of a printer desk in the living room).  If I shifted it there, I think that I could run a 16 footer USB cable under the carpet and around to the back of my tv/stereo cabinet....and probably fit a small DAC next to my cable box (or on top of it if need be) which is under my t.v.  And then run a relatively short RCA cable to the back of my preamp (leading it up behind the cabinet).

PD

[aukhawk]

I think in general terms long RCA is preferable to long USB.

It's very easy to get caught up in the perceived technicalities of streaming and lose sight of the fact that there are simple solutions that 'just work'. 
For example, any modern TV can stream music.  If the TV has RCA outs, then there ya go.  Mine only has optical out, so if I didn't already have a DAC I'd have to interpose a cheap DAC - this is just a black box with optical in and RCA out and can cost as little as £20 or as much as £2000 (hint: the audible difference is almost negligible - certainly no need to spend more than £100).  If you have an older TV that isn't 'smart' you can just plug a Fire Stick in the back - cheap enough, and any Fire device can stream music through the TV.
One dubious plus when you stream this way - you get album art on your big screen!

Another way, ideal for people who have forgotten what their phone is really for - get a Bluetooth receiver, again this is a cheap black box, this time with a stubby aerial, and RCA out.  Pair the receiver with your phone, now anything you can stream on your phone you can hear on your main system.

These solutions may not seem satisfactory for audiophiles (I am an audiophile by the way) but in fact they get pretty close and are certainly more than good enough for dipping a toe in and seeing what streaming is all about.

The best audiophile-ready solution (this is what I do) is a dedicated streamer.  This is just a black box with optical or RCA out, or usually both.  Again they start around £100 and go up to £x000s - in terms of audio quality the cheapest ones are absolutely fine.  It hooks into your WiFi and like any such device, requires a bit of initial setup via a web interface.  To control it - browse and play music - remember this is just a black box - this is usually done with a free phone or tablet app.
For popular cheap streamers, search for Wiim, Bluesound or Yamaha.  I have no direct experience of it, but the Yamaha WXC-50 looks like a very interesting 'starter' device.  I have the Wiim Mini (£76) in my 2nd system and it's absolutely fine if a bit techy to get the best out of it.  The Bluesound UI (phone app) has a good reputation.

I suppose all this is my way of saying - I know a lot of people do this, but I don't think hooking up a computer with long or short cables is a great way to go.  You tie down your valuable/useful computer, it's hard to remote-control it, there's cables everywhere, and computers often aren't set up well to be an audio source.  If you have an old Chrome Book lying around doing nothing, well maybe use that.

[Madiel]

Consider also whether some or all of your devices are capable of wifi, or can be made so.

The CD unit I bought a few years ago can also receive streaming on wifi (and could also receive a USB stick for example). Amazingly when I got it the model was discontinued (I might have got the 2nd-last one in the country) and there wasn't a direct replacement, but I think I did see other brands that could do something similar. I'm regularly sending it audio from my iPhone or from iTunes on my computer.

And my rather old PC was made wifi capable just by sticking a little Wifi adapter in the USB port. Cost me $79, I think there were cheaper ones than that but picked a brand/model that seemed trustworthy. In my new house, running cables everywhere wasn't practical. The place I wanted the computer to be was much too far away from where the internet connection to the house comes in, and so the only reason I can type this message right now (or send music or video to other devices in the house) is that little adapter, which has been 99% reliable over the last 15-16 months.

I don't always get certain combinations to be completely smooth, but these days I'm regularly sending signals between my PC, my CD player speakers, the Apple TV that's connected to my television, the actual television, and my iPhone. Pretty much all on wifi. Plus occasionally the portable bluetooth speakers that I unexpectedly won. It's frankly a lot more convenient than physical cables, and downtime is pretty rare. Occasionally I have to restart the router if it goes wrong, but that's... maybe averages an issue every couple of months? I can live with that.

[Spotted Horses]

I suppose all this is my way of saying - I know a lot of people do this, but I don't think hooking up a computer with long or short cables is a great way to go.  You tie down your valuable/useful computer, it's hard to remote-control it, there's cables everywhere, and computers often aren't set up well to be an audio source.  If you have an old Chrome Book lying around doing nothing, well maybe use that.

It also makes sense to me that a dedicated streamer is a good option, but I have no experience with such devices and have no wisdom to impart. In my case, I've just dipped my toe in streaming, but have spend years "streaming" music from an external hard drive with ~2TB of flac files that I've ripped from CDs or, more recently, downloaded. The only place I can listen to music is in the office where I have my desktop PC, so hard wiring a DAC to it is a no-brainer.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I think in general terms long RCA is preferable to long USB.

It's very easy to get caught up in the perceived technicalities of streaming and lose sight of the fact that there are simple solutions that 'just work'. 
For example, any modern TV can stream music.  If the TV has RCA outs, then there ya go.  Mine only has optical out, so if I didn't already have a DAC I'd have to interpose a cheap DAC - this is just a black box with optical in and RCA out and can cost as little as £20 or as much as £2000 (hint: the audible difference is almost negligible - certainly no need to spend more than £100).  If you have an older TV that isn't 'smart' you can just plug a Fire Stick in the back - cheap enough, and any Fire device can stream music through the TV.
One dubious plus when you stream this way - you get album art on your big screen!

Another way, ideal for people who have forgotten what their phone is really for - get a Bluetooth receiver, again this is a cheap black box, this time with a stubby aerial, and RCA out.  Pair the receiver with your phone, now anything you can stream on your phone you can hear on your main system.

These solutions may not seem satisfactory for audiophiles (I am an audiophile by the way) but in fact they get pretty close and are certainly more than good enough for dipping a toe in and seeing what streaming is all about.

The best audiophile-ready solution (this is what I do) is a dedicated streamer.  This is just a black box with optical or RCA out, or usually both.  Again they start around £100 and go up to £x000s - in terms of audio quality the cheapest ones are absolutely fine.  It hooks into your WiFi and like any such device, requires a bit of initial setup via a web interface.  To control it - browse and play music - remember this is just a black box - this is usually done with a free phone or tablet app.
For popular cheap streamers, search for Wiim, Bluesound or Yamaha.  I have no direct experience of it, but the Yamaha WXC-50 looks like a very interesting 'starter' device.  I have the Wiim Mini (£76) in my 2nd system and it's absolutely fine if a bit techy to get the best out of it.  The Bluesound UI (phone app) has a good reputation.

I suppose all this is my way of saying - I know a lot of people do this, but I don't think hooking up a computer with long or short cables is a great way to go.  You tie down your valuable/useful computer, it's hard to remote-control it, there's cables everywhere, and computers often aren't set up well to be an audio source.  If you have an old Chrome Book lying around doing nothing, well maybe use that.

Thank you so much for your suggestions! 

Update:  I used the AI assistant on the website for the Modi makers.  They recommend (re USB cables) keeping them to 2 meters or less.

Looked into possibly getting a Fire stick.  Firstly, I need to double-check what my Wifi setup is (It's old) to see which one would be compatible.  Secondly, I looked at the back of my t.v. (and also at the manual).  One of the two HDMI ports is hooked up to my DVD/SACD, etc. player and the second is hooked up to my cable box.

I suspect that the sound would be pretty bad if I used my old iPhone 6 and Bluetooth.  I could also get a Bluetooth receiver and believe that I could plug it into the back of my pre-amp (using RCA cables) and plug the power plug into my Panamax surge protector component.  I could then experiment listening to streaming services using one of my computers...possibly before deciding to commit to a streamer.

This Bluetooth streamer got a nice write-up at Crutchfield's.  Just checked the price though--$189.  Hmmm...

Here's the review.  Are you or anyone else here familiar with it?  https://www.crutchfield.com/S-dkUKneVB1d6/learn/how-to-add-bluetooth-to-your-home-stereo-system.html

I'll look into the streamers that you mentioned later on this weekend.  Thanks again!

PD

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Consider also whether some or all of your devices are capable of wifi, or can be made so.

The CD unit I bought a few years ago can also receive streaming on wifi (and could also receive a USB stick for example). Amazingly when I got it the model was discontinued (I might have got the 2nd-last one in the country) and there wasn't a direct replacement, but I think I did see other brands that could do something similar. I'm regularly sending it audio from my iPhone or from iTunes on my computer.

And my rather old PC was made wifi capable just by sticking a little Wifi adapter in the USB port. Cost me $79, I think there were cheaper ones than that but picked a brand/model that seemed trustworthy. In my new house, running cables everywhere wasn't practical. The place I wanted the computer to be was much too far away from where the internet connection to the house comes in, and so the only reason I can type this message right now (or send music or video to other devices in the house) is that little adapter, which has been 99% reliable over the last 15-16 months.

I don't always get certain combinations to be completely smooth, but these days I'm regularly sending signals between my PC, my CD player speakers, the Apple TV that's connected to my television, the actual television, and my iPhone. Pretty much all on wifi. Plus occasionally the portable bluetooth speakers that I unexpectedly won. It's frankly a lot more convenient than physical cables, and downtime is pretty rare. Occasionally I have to restart the router if it goes wrong, but that's... maybe averages an issue every couple of months? I can live with that.

Good thoughts/considerations.

You and Spotted H. were also typing while I was, but in a nutshell, a lot of my equipment is on the old side, so it doesn't have a number of "newer" capabilities (see above).

PD

[aukhawk]

In your position my 1st choice would have been to get a Fire Stick but given the limitations you describe my 2nd choice would be a Bluetooth receiver, but I would be trying for a price point around half that you mention.  The Harmon-Kardon one from that Crutchfield site might be more the mark.  I have no experience of Bluetooth receivers personally, but I have read loads of anecdotal stuff by people who have got good results this way, I have no reason to doubt that it's a viable way forward.

Think - any cheap 'digital' device (be it TV, BT receiver, DAC, Streamer, PC) that has RCA outs, will have a cheap DAC on board.  The quality of DAC directly affects the audio quality you get.  In all probability this DAC will be at the same sort of level that a standalone £20 DAC would offer.  These often measure pretty badly but - its very moot how much these measurements translate into anything audible.  I use a £15 standalone DAC in my 2nd system and it sounds just fine.  You'd have to pay a lot for any digital device (£500 or more) for the included DAC to rise above that level.

And - Bluetooth is continually evolving and improving.  This means any Bluetooth connection is going to be limited by the older of the two connected devices.  If you buy a new Bluetoooth receiver then regardless of what you pay the limiting factor is almost certain to be your phone or computer.  For this reason I wouldn't spend too much.

[Holden]

@Spotted Horses, I have the Modi 3+ DAC and it is excellent. It's now been superseded by the one that you've got.

The Audio Engine B1 in PDs post has a sibling which is this:

https://www.digidirect.com.au/catalog/product/view/id/57910/s/audioengine-b-fi-multiroom-music-streamer?gclid=CjwKCAjwyeujBhA5EiwA5WD7_TawcxI7zpGtl9fKtefEKysaB9qKeBIIMja7_Wnq7vj4ev2GqcFvyhoCyMQQAvD_BwE

It allows you to use it via your home WiFi network and is controlled by an app on your iPhone, android, etc. I've got it but don't use it much at the moment because the couple next door have a young baby so I stick to listening via my near field speakers and headphones attached to my PC

[Pohjolas Daughter]

One thing that I did learn about that Bluetooth receiver that I had linked to was that it goes to sleep after 10 minutes (and thereby mutes the sound).  Apparently you just need to refresh it, but still....that seems like I would find it to be very annoying--particularly if I was listening to longer pieces of music (symphonies, operas, etc.).

See the first (top) question here:  https://www.crutchfield.com/p_772B1ADPT/Audioengine-B1.html

PD

[Spotted Horses]

One thing that I did learn about that Bluetooth receiver that I had linked to was that it goes to sleep after 10 minutes (and thereby mutes the sound).  Apparently you just need to refresh it, but still....that seems like I would find it to be very annoying--particularly if I was listening to longer pieces of music (symphonies, operas, etc.).

See the first (top) question here:  https://www.crutchfield.com/p_772B1ADPT/Audioengine-B1.html

PD

Thank you for your question, Gary. The B1 automatically powers down and mutes the output after approximately 10 minutes. The BT input, however, is still active so you can just pair to it again without pressing the front-panel button. B1 will remain on if a device is paired with it and turned on though.

Seems like it will stay on as long as the device it is paired with is on, so turning off during use wouldn't be a problem. After 10 minutes in which your source is idle you might have to pair again.

Bluetooth always makes me uneasy because sometimes it works effortlessly and sometimes 'pairing' is a frustrating process.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Seems like it will stay on as long as the device it is paired with is on, so turning off during use wouldn't be a problem. After 10 minutes in which your source is idle you might have to pair again.

Bluetooth always makes me uneasy because sometimes it works effortlessly and sometimes 'pairing' is a frustrating process.

I had wondered about the wording of their response.  It had seemed to me quite strange that it would automatically mute after 10 minutes.  I might give them a call on Monday to clarify things.

Enough computer stuff for the time being; I'm off to put on some music! 

PD

[Todd]

Skip Bluetooth, stick with wifi, and go with a cheap Dayton Audio streamer, which cost between $52 and $70 each for the bottom end units.  (They also support Bluetooth.)  They have an optical out to use proper DACs and support a goodly number of streaming services.  A phone or tablet is needed to control the units.  Sound quality is at least 16/44.1 when using wifi.  I don't know if they stream hi res as I have never tried.  Expensive streamers are up there with expensive record clamps in terms of bang for the buck - unless people believe they really can hear beyond 22.05 KHz and their systems really can reproduce more than 16-bit dynamic range.