Coronavirus thread

[Madiel]

boosting our immune systems

Which you didn't. It's not really possible to boost an immune system that's already healthy, despite what wellness instagrammers will tell you.

And even if it was, it would be a terrible idea. Not only for covid, where people essentially died when their immune system was in overdrive, but for diseases generally.

The great majority of symptoms of most diseases are not caused by the disease directly, they are your immune system in action. Viruses don't want your nose to run and your body temperature to go up. That's your body trying to kill viruses. That's what an active immune system looks like.

And, to bring this silly conversation back to where it started, this is also why the symptoms of different diseases, like covid and influenza, are similar. Because the symptoms are the signs of the immune system fighting the infection.

[steve ridgway]

Which you didn't. It's not really possible to boost an immune system that's already healthy, despite what wellness instagrammers will tell you.

And even if it was, it would be a terrible idea. Not only for covid, where people essentially died when their immune system was in overdrive, but for diseases generally.

The great majority of symptoms of most diseases are not caused by the disease directly, they are your immune system in action. Viruses don't want your nose to run and your body temperature to go up. That's your body trying to kill viruses. That's what an active immune system looks like.

Supporting or maintaining our immune systems then, but we all made our decisions based on the information we had available (except those that were forced) and I'm more concerned now with the censorship and propaganda.

[Madiel]

I'm more concerned now with the censorship and propaganda.

Are you only concerned with the "propaganda" that told people to restrict their physical contact in order to avoid spreading a serious contagious disease, or are you also concerned with the propaganda that tried to sell people a wide range of preventatives and cures that had no medical evidence behind them?

As I've already said, I have absolutely no sympathy for the kind of free speech advocacy that supported telling people how taking Ivermectin would work, because that "information" instead resulted in a number of cases of poisoning, at least one fatal. Nor do I have any sympathy for the kind of scaremongering about vaccines that is based on complete ignorance (as opposed to proper factual information that explains what vaccines do and what they don't do, and what the risks of the vaccine are for certain segments of the population).

And I certainly don't support one of the MOST glaring pieces of propaganda, which was the constant nonsense about how the Chinese had manufactured the virus and deliberately released it. If you want to be concerned about propaganda, that's a good place to start. Scientists worked out that the virus was not a manufactured one really quite early on, and would explain how they knew that to anybody listening, and yet the frankly racist propaganda about a Chinese plot persisted.

People who don't like censorship never seem to weigh up the consequences of false information being out there. And during the pandemic those consequences literally included more people dying. Are you against censorship saving lives? I'm not. See also: suppression of information during World War Two. The British seemed to find that helpful.

[Madiel]

Supporting or maintaining our immune systems then

I'll bite. How do you think you did that?

[krummholz]

IMO the worst propaganda regarding the COVID pandemic was (and continues to be!) from fringe groups of physicians (e.g. FLCCC) and bitter, resentful scientists like Robert Malone that the mRNA-based vaccines themselves are dangerous and have killed or disabled large numbers of people. An old friend who lives with her spouse in a remote rural area near Gaylord, MI frequently sends me videos of a British nurse named Dr. John Campbell discussing the latest preprint purporting to show e.g. that Pfizer hid results of their clinical trials that actually showed high post-vaccination mortality rates - as if that would even be relevant today, given that the denominator (of total doses given) is in at least the hundreds of millions now and therefore we have MUCH more reliable statistics on adverse reactions - or analysis of the VAERS database or study of excess mortality statistics purporting to show same. I have asked her to stop sending me these videos as they inevitably are either based on math errors or evidence blatant intellectual dishonesty.

I'm sympathetic to the argument that mandatory vaccination with vaccines produced using new, untested technology (e.g. mRNA back in 2021) is a violation of individual rights. The tension between needs dictated by public health and individual rights is a real issue that needs addressing... but we are past that point, no one is being forced now (at least in the US) to get vaccinated, and certainly not with an mRNA vaccine as alternative vaccines produced with older technology are available (most notably the Novavax). But vaccine hesitancy, driven largely by propaganda such as Campbell's, is likely a significant reason that we are currently seeing yet another surge in cases, and many preventable cases of Long Covid are still emerging.

[Todd]

Supporting or maintaining our immune systems then, but we all made our decisions based on the information we had available (except those that were forced) and I'm more concerned now with the censorship and propaganda.

Reasonable people are properly concerned with censorship and propaganda. 

[Madiel]

Says the man who has posted Russian propaganda on this forum in the past...

[AnotherSpin]

IMO the worst propaganda regarding the COVID pandemic was (and continues to be!) from fringe groups of physicians (e.g. FLCCC) and bitter, resentful scientists like Robert Malone that the mRNA-based vaccines themselves are dangerous and have killed or disabled large numbers of people. An old friend who lives with her spouse in a remote rural area near Gaylord, MI frequently sends me videos of a British nurse named Dr. John Campbell discussing the latest preprint purporting to show e.g. that Pfizer hid results of their clinical trials that actually showed high post-vaccination mortality rates - as if that would even be relevant today, given that the denominator (of total doses given) is in at least the hundreds of millions now and therefore we have MUCH more reliable statistics on adverse reactions - or analysis of the VAERS database or study of excess mortality statistics purporting to show same. I have asked her to stop sending me these videos as they inevitably are either based on math errors or evidence blatant intellectual dishonesty.

I'm sympathetic to the argument that mandatory vaccination with vaccines produced using new, untested technology (e.g. mRNA back in 2021) is a violation of individual rights. The tension between needs dictated by public health and individual rights is a real issue that needs addressing... but we are past that point, no one is being forced now (at least in the US) to get vaccinated, and certainly not with an mRNA vaccine as alternative vaccines produced with older technology are available (most notably the Novavax). But vaccine hesitancy, driven largely by propaganda such as Campbell's, is likely a significant reason that we are currently seeing yet another surge in cases, and many preventable cases of Long Covid are still emerging.

Who would have doubted it — another surge of the pandemic . Obviously, you are aware of the statistics. Can you tell what percentage of the newly affected are those who were already vaccinated? A comparison with the number of those who were not previously vaccinated would be preferable.

[Madiel]

Who would have doubted it — another surge of the pandemic . Obviously, you are aware of the statistics. Can you tell what percentage of the newly affected are those who were already vaccinated? A comparison with the number of those who were not previously vaccinated would be preferable.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccine-effectiveness

P.S. Asking for percentage of cases is a mathematical error. If 100% of the population is vaccinated, then 100% of cases would occur in vaccinated people. Similarly, if 0% of the population is vaccinated, then 0% of cases would occur in vaccinated people.

What you need to know is not just percentage of cases in vaccinated people, but the percentage of cases in vaccinated people compared to the percentage of the population vaccinated. If 80% of people are vaccinated but only 60% of cases occur in vaccinated people, then the vaccine is offering protection.

EDIT/PPS: And it's been explained ever since the vaccines first came out, to anybody who bothered listening, that the primary goal of the vaccines was not to prevent infection but to prevent severe infection, causing hospitalization or death. And there's been plenty of data to show how good vaccination is at preventing severe cases. It does offer some protection against infection, but it's GREAT at protecting against bad cases.

[Todd]

There are still people who believe non-N95 masks are effective, so there are still people who believe in the dire warnings of Covid surges.  Hell, some people believed Tony Fauci and his minions when they publicly stated, on camera, over and over, that people who got the vaccine could not contract the disease.  Such people will believe and reflexively proselytize any old thing.  They will also memory hole things.  That's a hallmark of effective propaganda.

Per the CDC, which demolished a good portion of its trustworthiness, in 2023 Covid killed ~49K in the US while influenza killed ~45K, primarily among the elderly and secondarily among people with underlying diseases.  Covid is now endemic, a run of the mill respiratory disease.  And yes, run of the mill is the way to describe it.  One can expect to see variances in the number of annual deaths between 25K and 60K.  This is an acceptable level of death and disease from a public health perspective.  It should of course be noted that the current rates are occurring with very low vaccination rates.  The public has rightly and overwhelmingly determined that the risk from vaccination is no longer warranted.

[Madiel]

Tony Fauci and his minions ... publicly stated, on camera, over and over, that people who got the vaccine could not contract the disease.

Bullshit unless you can show it. Which, if it was on camera, you should be able to do.

I wasn't thinking about "Fauci and his minions", though, seeing how I'm not in America. So I'm certainly not failing to remember statements that I never saw in the first place.

Fauci certainly talked about waning immunity: https://www.reuters.com/article/fact-check/misleading-headlines-with-fauci-statement-about-booster-shots-idUSL1N2S826A/

And by August 2021 he clearly didn't think what you're claiming he stated: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/12/covid-booster-shot-fauci-says-it-is-likely-everybody-will-eventually-need-a-third-vaccine.html

[AnotherSpin]

There are still people who believe non-N95 masks are effective, so there are still people who believe in the dire warnings of Covid surges.  Hell, some people believed Tony Fauci and his minions when they publicly stated, on camera, over and over, that people who got the vaccine could not contract the disease.  Such people will believe and reflexively proselytize any old thing.  They will also memory hole things.  That's a hallmark of effective propaganda.

Per the CDC, which demolished a good portion of its trustworthiness, in 2023 Covid killed ~49K in the US while influenza killed ~45K, primarily among the elderly and secondarily among people with underlying diseases.  Covid is now endemic, a run of the mill respiratory disease.  And yes, run of the mill is the way to describe it.  One can expect to see variances in the number of annual deaths between 25K and 60K.  This is an acceptable level of death and disease from a public health perspective.  It should of course be noted that the current rates are occurring with very low vaccination rates.  The public has rightly and overwhelmingly determined that the risk from vaccination is no longer warranted.

In other words, the CDC claims that various types of flu have killed about 90K people in 2023.

[Madiel]

In other words, the CDC claims that various types of flu have killed about 90K people in 2023.

This is the point where you are just deliberately ignoring the most basic science. I bet you're the kind of person who goes to the doctor demanding antibiotics for viral infections.

[Todd]

In other words, the CDC claims that various types of flu have killed about 90K people in 2023.

The CDC breaks out fatalities from different types of respiratory diseases, including diseases other than the two headline diseases.  My understanding is that Covid and influenza are different types of respiratory illnesses, though I am neither an epidemiologist nor pulmonologist, and I'm pretty sure no one else on this forum is either.  I'm content with the disgraced agency's demarcation.  People who prefer to group them together can do so.

[Madiel]

My understanding is that Covid and influenza are different types of respiratory illnesses, though I am neither an epidemiologist nor pulmonologist, and I'm pretty sure no one else on this forum is either.

So wait, the guy who frequently and contemptuously tells other people on the forum to just go and use Google, can't do that himself to verify that the causal agents of covid and influenza are different?

Ugh. It's time for bed rather than dealing with my 2 least favourite people on this forum.

[AnotherSpin]

The CDC breaks out fatalities from different types of respiratory diseases, including diseases other than the two headline diseases.  My understanding is that Covid and influenza are different types of respiratory illnesses, though I am neither an epidemiologist nor pulmonologist, and I'm pretty sure no one else on this forum is either.  I'm content with the disgraced agency's demarcation.  People who prefer to group them together can do so.

All types of flu are different. They can be classified and grouped according to different principles. But here it's something else entirely—restriction of rights, forced vaccination with hastily concocted mixtures, the effects of which raise very serious questions, quarantine, the ruin of small and medium-sized businesses, and so on.

[Madiel]

I will note in departure that the only evidence I can find of the claim that a vaccine will provide perfect protection is from right-wing people wrongly believing that that's what all vaccines do, and then criticising Fauci BECAUSE the Covid vaccines do not.

Any thoughtful person knows that not all vaccines achieve perfect protection. Flu shots being the most common example.

But enough. There's no point in explaining the complexities of biology to people who are determined to not take any of it on board. My science degree educated me, but it's certainly NOT going to educate these two.

[Todd]

All types of flu are different. They can be classified and grouped according to different principles. But here it's something else entirely—restriction of rights, forced vaccination with hastily concocted mixtures, the effects of which raise very serious questions, quarantine, the ruin of small and medium-sized businesses, and so on.

This seems to conflate different topics.  Diseases are typically categorized by medical and scientific professionals.  I defer to them for categorization.  Public health responses are dictated by politicians, both appointed medical officials and properly elected representatives or executives.  Using any reasonable or objective standard, the responses in most of the advanced world were purely authoritarian in nature.  Some aspects of the responses approached and continue to approach totalitarianism, most specifically the illegitimate use of coercive state power to censor.  This last item is very important in the US, but less so in countries with underdeveloped freedom of speech protection.

[DavidW]

And, to bring this silly conversation back to where it started, this is also why the symptoms of different diseases, like covid and influenza, are similar. Because the symptoms are the signs of the immune system fighting the infection.

I began by thinking I was having hay fever because my symptoms started after I mowed the lawn. The grass and ragweed pollen are high right now, and I'm highly allergic.

Our body tends to react in much the same way to colds, flu, hay fever, covid (at least at first). It's a good thing I could go to urgent care and be tested, and mask up and social distance to avoid casually infecting others.

[Karl Henning]

the latest preprint purporting to show e.g. that Pfizer hid results of their clinical trials that actually showed high post-vaccination mortality rates ....

While her death was not related to COVID (at least there's that) our late sister bought into both this and the Ivermectin drivel.