Nielsen: Where to Start?

[krummholz]

There is a reason why atonal music is so marginal: It is an acquired taste. At least atonal music is being recorded and released for people to enjoy at home etc.

In the opinion of some, *anything* by the Second Viennese School composers is "an acquired taste" that mainstream listeners avoid like the plague. Many years ago when the Detroit FM station WQRS was still a classical music station, I requested Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony No. 1 during a Music By Request program and got an earful from the "DJ" about how he would never program anything by Schoenberg OR Berg OR Webern and that everyone hated their music for good reason... after which he reluctantly acceded to my request, but only "to show why Schoenberg is so unpopular".

Of course, I enjoyed the work immensely, and I'll bet I wasn't alone.

[prémont]

There is a reason why atonal music is so marginal: It is an acquired taste. At least atonal music is being recorded and released for people to enjoy at home etc.

Nearly everything in life can be considered an acquired taste, and this is true for music as well. Some genres may appeal to us early on, while others might grow on us over time, or perhaps not at all. The challenge with atonal music is that it's often harder to develop a taste for it.

[Le Buisson Ardent]

There is a reason why atonal music is so marginal: It is an acquired taste. At least atonal music is being recorded and released for people to enjoy at home etc.

But as someone who does listen at home, this music doesn't stand a chance of surviving if it is willfully ignored by the concert-going public. Also, your point about something being an acquired taste can certainly leveled at all kinds of music not just works from the Second Viennese School.

[Le Buisson Ardent]

In the opinion of some, *anything* by the Second Viennese School composers is "an acquired taste" that mainstream listeners avoid like the plague. Many years ago when the Detroit FM station WQRS was still a classical music station, I requested Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony No. 1 during a Music By Request program and got an earful from the "DJ" about how he would never program anything by Schoenberg OR Berg OR Webern and that everyone hated their music for good reason... after which he reluctantly acceded to my request, but only "to show why Schoenberg is so unpopular".

Of course, I enjoyed the work immensely, and I'll bet I wasn't alone.

Exposure is key to everything, especially in classical music. If a radio station is willfully undermining the achievements of Schoenberg or Webern, then not only are they closing a book to a chapter in the history of classical music, but they are depriving their listeners the ability to make up their own minds about their music.

Personally, I would've given them a nice tongue-lashing for the sheer audacity to argue with someone about a listening request. I mean they're either in the business to promote classical music of they're not. Thank goodness I never had to put up with the stuffed shirts that run classical radio stations!

[Le Buisson Ardent]

Nearly everything in life can be considered an acquired taste, and this is true for music as well. Some genres may appeal to us early on, while others might grow on us over time, or perhaps not at all. The challenge with atonal music is that it's often harder to develop a taste for it.

And also with atonal music just like it's tonal counterpart, there are going to pieces that appeal to you and others that don't. A superb introduction for anyone into this world is Berg's Violin Concerto for example. In fact, it was my gateway into getting into atonal music.

[71 dB]

But as someone who does listen at home, this music doesn't stand a chance of surviving if it is willfully ignored by the concert-going public.

What do you mean survive? Are you suggesting 100 years from now nobody knows this music ever existed?

Also, your point about something being an acquired taste can certainly leveled at all kinds of music not just works from the Second Viennese School.

Of course! A lot of the music I listen to is considered acquired taste. That's just how it is when you develop your taste beyond the mainstream stuff.

[71 dB]

In the opinion of some, *anything* by the Second Viennese School composers is "an acquired taste" that mainstream listeners avoid like the plague. Many years ago when the Detroit FM station WQRS was still a classical music station, I requested Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony No. 1 during a Music By Request program and got an earful from the "DJ" about how he would never program anything by Schoenberg OR Berg OR Webern and that everyone hated their music for good reason... after which he reluctantly acceded to my request, but only "to show why Schoenberg is so unpopular".

Of course, I enjoyed the work immensely, and I'll bet I wasn't alone.

There's nothing surprising about the masses disliking atonal music, but people playing music on radio should have more open mind/understanding. These people are supposed to be music educators. Just saying...

[Daverz]

Those who call the Symphony "problematical" simply aren't as open-minded as you are. 

I hope my brain doesn't fall out.   

[Karl Henning]

There is a reason why atonal music is so marginal: It is an acquired taste.

Emphasis mine. For some, by no means for all. There are many people who loved an atonal piece on first listen.

[Karl Henning]

In the opinion of some, *anything* by the Second Viennese School composers is "an acquired taste" that mainstream listeners avoid like the plague. Many years ago when the Detroit FM station WQRS was still a classical music station, I requested Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony No. 1 during a Music By Request program and got an earful from the "DJ" about how he would never program anything by Schoenberg OR Berg OR Webern and that everyone hated their music for good reason... after which he reluctantly acceded to my request, but only "to show why Schoenberg is so unpopular".

Of course, I enjoyed the work immensely, and I'll bet I wasn't alone.

A couple of the fundamental tenets from the playbook assumed by Classical Radio are that apart from the Pulcinella Suite, the audiences hate anything Stravinsky wrote after The Firebird. And Schoenberg? Maybe, just maybe Verklärte Nacht (the string orchestra expansion.

[71 dB]

I hope my brain doesn't fall out.   

Is your skull as open as your mind?

[Le Buisson Ardent]

What do you mean survive? Are you suggesting 100 years from now nobody knows this music ever existed?

Of course! A lot of the music I listen to is considered acquired taste. That's just how it is when you develop your taste beyond the mainstream stuff.

Oh, I think the history books will be kind to the Second Viennese School, but what I'm saying is music is a living, breathing thing that has to be performed in order for it to have any kind of hope of surviving or have any kind of semblance in people's lives. The concert-going public need to be exposed to this music whether they like it or not. Perhaps out of 50 listeners in the audience there will be 15 that come away from the atonal piece that has just been performed with a newfound respect for the idiom. This cannot happen if you continue to subject classical music to nothing more than a museum tour.

[71 dB]

Well, what can I say? Orchestras need money and they play what sells. We live in a lunatic World where endless amount of money is wasted in wars/military/etc. while atonal has any value only to a small minority of people. Maybe it is not for Americans to keep Second Viennese School alive. Maybe that's for people living in Austria and Germany (I assume those works are mostly performed in those countries).

[Karl Henning]

Well, what can I say? Orchestras need money and they play what sells.

"Bums in seats" has always been a factor, certainly in our lifetime. Nevertheless, I have attended live performances of Gurrelieder, Schoenberg's Violin Concerto, his Suite-Septet, Moses und Aron, the Berg Kammerkonzert, and more.

[DavidW]

"Bums in seats" has always been a factor, certainly in our lifetime. Nevertheless, I have attended live performances of Gurrelieder, Schoenberg's Violin Concerto, his Suite-Septet, Moses und Aron, the Berg Kammerkonzert, and more.

I think that it is the purview of major orchestras. It is the smaller orchestras that feel that pressure most keenly. Recently, my local orchestra, for example, sent me 3 concerts for a $99 deal because they can't just fill all the seats. And they certainly could not whenever they performed 20th century classical unfortunately.

[Karl Henning]

I think that it is the purview of major orchestras. It is the smaller orchestras that feel that pressure most keenly. Recently, my local orchestra, for example, sent me 3 concerts for a $99 deal because they can't just fill all the seats. And they certainly could not whenever they performed 20th century classical unfortunately.

Very true. This is why it's especially a disgrace when a major US orchestra programs more Brahms and Beethoven than (to be honest) any loyal and experienced classical music listener feels can justify an expensive evening at Symphony. Because all the Brahms and Beethoven we might want is readily available at home either cheaper, or already paid for. I've heard the Eroica, the Ninth and the Brahms Third in Symphony Hall, and the band was good, of course, but none of those performances was notable. 

[Le Buisson Ardent]

Well, what can I say? Orchestras need money and they play what sells. We live in a lunatic World where endless amount of money is wasted in wars/military/etc. while atonal has any value only to a small minority of people. Maybe it is not for Americans to keep Second Viennese School alive. Maybe that's for people living in Austria and Germany (I assume those works are mostly performed in those countries).

Sure, yeah, I mean I get it --- atonal music is scary for people. Schoenberg is like that creepy monster hiding under your bed. But this is why I mentioned exposure. I think more people would enjoy the Second Viennese School if they are given the chance to hear in it in concert. A lot of people just aren't going to go explore this music on their own without having been compelled to do so. I'm not saying that every concert should have Schoenberg on the program --- that would be ridiculous and unrealistic, but it would be nice if orchestra board members (aka the stuffed shirts who actually don't know a damn thing about classical music to begin with) would throw a bone to concert goers sometimes. This probably happens more often in Europe than the US. Hell, I'd attend more classical concerts if there were more interesting programs being offered by my local orchestra.

[lunar22]

If a conductor is a known specialist and has something very individual to offer, then it's OK to programme a Brahms or Beethoven symphony. Usually I'd never dream of going to Beethoven 7 in concert but a performance with the then 95 year old Blomstedt in the Berlin Philharmonie completely transformed the work and I was left spellbound.

However your average conductor should stick to trying to perform interesting works which are less well known and I really wish there were far fewer of the tedious warhorse violin and piano concertos which mainly seem to be a vehicle for superstars. The trouble is, as some have already pointed out, that this sort of thing seems to fill concert halls and the fact that I or Karl may avoid such concerts will not feature highly in the programming of the season.

[71 dB]

Sure, yeah, I mean I get it --- atonal music is scary for people.

Most people are afraid of any music that is one inch from the music they have learned to like.

Schoenberg is like that creepy monster hiding under your bed. But this is why I mentioned exposure. I think more people would enjoy the Second Viennese School if they are given the chance to hear in it in concert.

Totally plausible.

A lot of people just aren't going to go explore this music on their own without having been compelled to do so. I'm not saying that every concert should have Schoenberg on the program --- that would be ridiculous and unrealistic, but it would be nice if orchestra board members (aka the stuffed shirts who actually don't know a damn thing about classical music to begin with) would throw a bone to concert goers sometimes. This probably happens more often in Europe than the US. Hell, I'd attend more classical concerts if there were more interesting programs being offered by my local orchestra.

That's the annoying thing about the World: It could be better in many ways, but it isn't...

[lunar22]

This probably happens more often in Europe than the US

I'm not actually convinced that it does from my experience in the UK and Germany. Certainly in Stuttgart which is a not insignificant musical centre (best known for its choirs and Bach tradition perhaps), I can find it quite hard to select seven concerts in an entire season for the "culture club" subscription series. Now I'd rather have more contemporary music but I have to admit to being a bit perverse in actually liking relatively little contemporary music, though perhaps we're finally starting to get a little more stylistic diversity. But even within the pretty well standard repertoire, the focus is so often on a tiny number of works. I don't ever remember seeing a single Martinu symphony being programmed here for instance, despite the fact he's hardly obscure. There are so many works which are similar to but not the same as the tiny core repertoire which the public would almost certainly enjoy, given the exposure. I don't know how often there are actual surveys made of the concert-going public. Do most people attend concerts because it's simply part of their social expectations? Such people perhaps go as much to be seen as to hear but they re surely not the overwhelming majority. Anyway, enough on that....