Beethoven's Piano Sonatas

[DavidW]

Ok. Excuse me. I have used "search function" and I haven't found it.

I found that if you search the thread, the search won't work, but if you search the entire forum, there is no problem.

Please don't mind, Todd; the rest of us don't expect you to know that something had been discussed a decade ago or exhume it. Some of us have been posting here for 20+ years, and if we insist on only discussing what had not been discussed before, we would be left with only the current listening and purchase threads.

[kapsweiss2021]

Finally, with Google search and with your help, I find it on Page 224. This message #4465 and the following ones (specifically #4473):

My copy arrived today.  The first batch of liner notes are by Anne-Sophie Mutter.  The second batch are by Julia Spinola, who writes that this is the fifth complete recorded cycle from Barenboim.  That is news to me.  Jed Distler states in his review that Barenboim does use his straight-string custom piano.  I guess I should start listening.

[kapsweiss2021]

User Holden said this:

I may or may not have solved this. The EuroArts recordings are DVDs and were made in 1983/1984. The DGG are CD recordings and also made in 1983/84. Is it possible that:

The DVDs were recorded separately technically creating a 5th cycle. This is them.

https://www.medici.tv/en/collections/the-complete-beethoven-sonatas-by-daniel-barenboim-1983-1984/

The tracks from the DVDs were transferred from the EuroArts, leading the reviewer to think that they are different and hence a 5th cycle.

To throw a spanner in the works, a separate reviewer also calls this a 5th cycle.

https://www.ft.com/content/5d17e7dc-6c4d-495a-801d-f84c604f3e1b


A comparison by someone who owns the DG cycle with the Medici videos posted above might clear this up. Track timing might give this away. Also, the CD booklet could also help as Medici lists the venues as "Austrian Palaces".  You'll need a Medici subscription to hear the complete recordings.

[/list][/list]

[George]

Finally, with Google search and with your help, I find it on Page 224. This message #4465 and the following ones (specifically #4473):

Glad you found it!

One more thing I find helpful about searching here is searching by username and keyword using the Search button above. I find it helps me zero in on relevant posts. 

[Todd]

Finally, with Google search and with your help, I find it on Page 224. This message #4465 and the following ones (specifically #4473):

My copy arrived today.  The first batch of liner notes are by Anne-Sophie Mutter.  The second batch are by Julia Spinola, who writes that this is the fifth complete recorded cycle from Barenboim.  That is news to me.  Jed Distler states in his review that Barenboim does use his straight-string custom piano.  I guess I should start listening.

That is not what I was referring to.  I know what I bought and when, and I also know that the notes may not be correct.  There was no final resolution as to whether Barenboim recorded four or five cycles.  Barenboim did not write the notes, so I place no stock in the notes.

[Jo498]

Is it correct that Michelangeli only played these 5 sonatas

op.2/3
op.7
op.22
op.26
op.111

and that there are studio recordings only of opp. 7 and 111 (but lots of different live recordings of all/most of them)?

[Mandryka]

Is it correct that Michelangeli only played these 5 sonatas

op.2/3
op.7
op.22
op.26
op.111

and that there are studio recordings only of opp. 7 and 111 (but lots of different live recordings of all/most of them)?

Yes

[Madiel]

One of the discogs entries for Barenboim's CD release back in 1984 lists the recording venue as being in Paris (the other entries don't say anything). Specifically Maison de la Mutualité.

If this is correct and "Austrian Palaces" is correct for the video release, it would mean they are different recordings.

Edit: MusicBrainz has the same Paris location in its data. Without going into all the reasons, this is clearly an independent entry from the discogs one.

Second edit: And yes for the EuroArts videos there are references to Austrian palaces or more specifically to palaces in Vienna.

[DavidW]

Topic temporarily locked.

[DavidW]

I'm unlocking the thread. Please, no more squabbling.

[Madiel]

Usefulness is it's own reward in this context.

[Jo498]

After a few weeks of listening more to Beethoven sonatas (and more broadly, not only revisiting usual suspects) than in some time, I am more than ever impressed by this body of work. While there are IMO more pieces with flaws (about half of the piano sonatas are earlyish and Beethoven was at his most daring and experimental in the genre) than there are in the string quartets or symphonies, the variety is incredible and unsurpassed. Especially considering that the sonata frame is with all liberties and creativity always recognizable.

There are a few movements that follow a "type", e.g. obviously several scherzo-like ones but also the 3 "Rondo grazioso" finales (opp.2/2, 7, 22) but all sonatas have unique features and are distinct individuals, e.g. take the respective 1st or slow movements of the 3 with the Grazioso-finales.

Even one of the most modest ones, the sonatina g minor op.49/1 has a unique first movement that seems unlike any other (not restricted to the piano sonatas).

An added bonus is that the sonatas have inspired a huge spectrum of interpretation, sometimes irritating, sometimes congenial. As only one person decides there seems to be considerably more variety in approaches and artistic choices than in e.g. string quartets or violin sonatas.

[Mandryka]

An added bonus is that the sonatas have inspired a huge spectrum of interpretation, sometimes irritating, sometimes congenial. As only one person decides there seems to be considerably more variety in approaches and artistic choices than in e.g. string quartets or violin sonatas.

This sentence came back to me as I was reflecting of the variety of ways of playing Bruckner 8. But I guess in symphonies, only one person decides too.

[Todd]

Found two more complete cycles.  One is by Adrian Gagiu and one is by Burhan Erdemir.  Both are also composers.  Erdemir states that he is an amateur, and his cycle can be streamed on YouTube.

Not saying they're Colomboesque.  Not saying they're not.  Their YouTube channels do not inspire confidence.  Ah, hell, I am saying that they're Colomboesque and will add them to the list of illegitimate cycles.

[hopefullytrusting]

Found two more complete cycles.  One is by Adrian Gagiu and one is by Burhan Erdemir.  Both are also composers.  Erdemir states that he is an amateur, and his cycle can be streamed on YouTube.

Not saying they're Colomboesque.  Not saying they're not.  Their YouTube channels do not inspire confidence.  Ah, hell, I am saying that they're Colomboesque and will add them to the list of illegitimate cycles.

Think you might have made that move too soon.

Listened to both of their 109s, like them both. In fact, I think Erdemir's I might even call good.

[Todd]

Think you might have made that move too soon.

There are no concert performances or even filmed studio performances by either (based on admittedly limited searches), so I have doubts as to whether they actually play the music at all, and if they do, it appears that they run the music through editing software.  Both of them have other music that's clearly not real - various pop music mashups in the case of Erdemir and symphony movements in the case of Gagiu.  I'm not familiar with software options that replicate pianos or orchestras, but it's out there.

In the case of LvB, there's a legit amateur cycle by John Kane that is in line with what one would expect from someone who once participated in piano competitions and then gave it up to get rich, only to return to playing as a hobby later. 

In short, classical music need a Wings of Pegasus type channel.

[hopefullytrusting]

There are no concert performances or even filmed studio performances by either (based on admittedly limited searches), so I have doubts as to whether they actually play the music at all, and if they do, it appears that they run the music through editing software.  Both of them have other music that's clearly not real - various pop music mashups in the case of Erdemir and symphony movements in the case of Gagiu.  I'm not familiar with software options that replicate pianos or orchestras, but it's out there.

In the case of LvB, there's a legit amateur cycle by John Kane that is in line with what one would expect from someone who once participated in piano competitions and then gave it up to get rich, only to return to playing as a hobby later. 

In short, classical music need a Wings of Pegasus type channel.

Forgive me. I forgot who I was dealing with. You would never forget to do your due diligence.

[NumberSix]

There are no concert performances or even filmed studio performances by either (based on admittedly limited searches), so I have doubts as to whether they actually play the music at all, and if they do, it appears that they run the music through editing software.  Both of them have other music that's clearly not real - various pop music mashups in the case of Erdemir and symphony movements in the case of Gagiu.  I'm not familiar with software options that replicate pianos or orchestras, but it's out there.

In the case of LvB, there's a legit amateur cycle by John Kane that is in line with what one would expect from someone who once participated in piano competitions and then gave it up to get rich, only to return to playing as a hobby later. 

In short, classical music need a Wings of Pegasus type channel.

Maybe Rufus can help you find some recordings from these guys. 

[Florestan]

https://www.musica-ferrum.com/composer/adrian-gagiu/

Mentioned in the above presentation:

http://enciclopediaromaniei.ro/wiki/Remus_Georgescu*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ervin_Ac%C3%A9l_(conductor)

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Rosenberg_(Musiker)*

(* I'm sure Google Translate is reliable)

His YT channel has lots of his own music, both symphonic, chamber and piano solo.

There's no mention of him being a (self-taught) pianist, though, let alone having recorded all of Beethoven's piano sonatas. He specifies only what instrument the music has been recorded on, not by whom or how. AFAIC, the whole thing is a mystery.

[Todd]

Maybe Rufus can help you find some recordings from these guys. 

Rufus is but a baby.  No, I decided to heed the advice extra-super-smart Mark Cuban, the billionaire lord on the TV worthy of devotion by us serfs, and I used Gemini.  Here's what Gemini says:

----------

Burhan Erdemir
I do not have enough information about that person to help with your request. I am a large language model, and I am able to communicate and generate human-like text in response to a wide range of prompts and questions, but my knowledge about this person is limited. Is there anything else I can do to help you with this request?



Adrian Gagiu
A Qualitative Assessment of Adrian Gagiu's Beethoven Piano Sonata Recordings

Disclaimer: While I cannot provide a definitive assessment without having listened to specific recordings, I can offer a general perspective based on common critical evaluations of Gagiu's work and the nature of Beethoven's piano sonatas.

Adrian Gagiu is a renowned pianist and composer known for his passionate and expressive performances. His interpretations often exhibit a deep understanding of the musical language and structure of the works he performs. When applied to Beethoven's sonatas, this approach can yield both compelling and controversial results.

Key Strengths of Gagiu's Beethoven Interpretations:

Emotional Depth: Gagiu is often praised for his ability to convey the emotional intensity and dramatic power of Beethoven's music. His performances can be deeply moving and thought-provoking.

Technical Mastery: Gagiu possesses exceptional technical skills, allowing him to tackle the demanding challenges of Beethoven's sonatas with ease and precision.

Personal Interpretation: His interpretations are often marked by a strong personal touch, reflecting his unique understanding and perspective on the music.

Potential Areas of Debate:

Tempo Choices: Gagiu's tempo choices can sometimes be unconventional, leading to debates among critics and audiences.* Some may find his interpretations too slow or too fast, while others may appreciate his willingness to challenge traditional interpretations.

Rubato and Phrasing: His use of rubato and phrasing can be quite expressive, but some listeners may find it excessive or distracting.

Balance Between Structure and Emotion: While Gagiu's emotional interpretations are often praised, some critics may argue that he sometimes sacrifices structural clarity in favor of expressive intensity.

Overall, Adrian Gagiu's Beethoven piano sonata recordings are likely to be both admired and debated. His performances offer a unique and compelling perspective on these iconic works, and his technical mastery and emotional depth make him a significant figure in the world of classical music.

----------


* I should like to see the critics' reviews.  And any debates.

So, Gemini could not find info on Erdemir, indicating a high probability that he doesn't perform.  I cannot confirm he's even real.  The Gagiu commentary is recycled ad copy blobbed together with generic critical reviews from various, unrelated reviews.  It is impossible to determine from the gibberish offered if Gagiu performs.  I will place both cycles firmly in the "illegitimate" category.

Also, I should note that Gemini gibberish bears a striking structural and syntactical resemblance to unbranded and even branded news stories available online.