Composers about Composers - Stupidest Statements

[hopefullytrusting]

I mean that is probably why Dave Hurwitz has such a large following.

I imagine so, although, I've still never heard or read him.

[Todd]

What's so stupid about that?

There's nothing stupid about it, but it is perhaps a little cruel to some mid-century sopranos.

One of the reasons I love Stravinsky so much is the very same reason I love Jonathan Franzen so much - they have actual opinions that they aren't afraid to say out loud.

The bit about Franzen piqued my interest so I used the google machine.  I have not, as far as I know, read one word written by Mr Franzen, but he did something that led to a lengthy hit piece by Vox, so he must be doing something right.  What are his dastardly opinions, if I may ask?

[hopefullytrusting]

The bit about Franzen piqued my interest so I used the google machine.  I have not, as far as I know, read one word written by Mr Franzen, but he did something that led to a lengthy hit piece by Vox, so he must be doing something right.  What are his dastardly opinions, if I may ask?

Well, for me, the firestorm started with a slew of clips he did when interviewed by Big Think - this one in particular:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K5FvI33QH1M

Now, as a writer, I cannot stand Franzen. They claim he writes suburban novels, and I'm like only if everyone in that suburb went to an Ivy, but I love his interviews, as he is not afraid to say what he is thinking. Lol.

[Todd]

Well, for me, the firestorm started with a slew of clips he did when interviewed by Big Think - this one in particular:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K5FvI33QH1M

Had to watch it.  He's a catty writer.  The first one ever.  I get why he rankles some pseudo/quasi/actual-intellectuals and intellectual-adjacent types.

[hopefullytrusting]

Had to watch it.  He's a catty writer.  The first one ever.  I get why he rankles some pseudo/quasi/actual-intellectuals and intellectual-adjacent types.

Catty. That is a perfect word for him and Stravinsky, probably Hurwitz as well. You know what, I've convinced myself to give him a listen. I hope he's as catty as I hope. Lol.

[Todd]

You know what, I've convinced myself to give him a listen. I hope he's as catty as I hope. Lol.

Stravinsky or Hurwitz?

[hopefullytrusting]

Stravinsky or Hurwitz?

Hurwitz.

I already love Stravinsky.

[Todd]

Hurwitz.

I already love Stravinsky.

Ol' loveable Dave is a catty, cantankerous sort.  Every once in a while, I watch a video specifically to hear his cattiness.  His tirades/banal complaints (take your pick) about Bruckner performances always delight.

[hopefullytrusting]

Ol' loveable Dave is a catty, cantankerous sort.  Every once in a while, I watch a video specifically to hear his cattiness.  His tirades/banal complaints (take your pick) about Bruckner performances always delight.

Okay, I listened to three videos of his, all on Bruckner, and this sums him up well, but I can never listen to him as he has too much salvia in his mouth, and I can't unhear that.

He looked and sounded exactly how I thought. He's a classic troll, and I see why now he has such good engagement. Lol.

[DavidW]

Beethoven thought Handel the greatest composer who ever lived. Then again, it's questionable how much of Handel's music Beethoven could have known. I'm really not aware of any composers sneering at Handel's operas; they were scarcely known until the middle of the 20th century.

"A tub of pork and beer."
– Hector Berlioz

"Handel is only fourth rate. He is not even interesting." — Peter Tchaikovsky

"It's beautiful and boring. Too many pieces finish too long after the end." – Stravinsky about Handel's oratorio Theodora.

[Todd]

He looked and sounded exactly how I thought. He's a classic troll, and I see why now he has such good engagement. Lol.

Hurwitz is the perfect American critic-cum-antidote to the stereotypical British classical music critic.  You know those gentlemen sit around in smoking jackets and cravats, snifter of sherry in hand, nodding in approval or gently shaking their head in disapproval, muttering in the poshest RP accent something like "no, that just won't do".

"Handel is only fourth rate. He is not even interesting." — Peter Tchaikovsky

Pete had some nerve calling anyone fourth rate.

[(poco) Sforzando]

"A tub of pork and beer."
– Hector Berlioz

"Handel is only fourth rate. He is not even interesting." — Peter Tchaikovsky

"It's beautiful and boring. Too many pieces finish too long after the end." – Stravinsky about Handel's oratorio Theodora.

Yes, but you mentioned the operas. Theo is an oratorio. (Which you could I suppose call an opera to an English text.)

[JBS]

"A tub of pork and beer."
– Hector Berlioz

"Handel is only fourth rate. He is not even interesting." — Peter Tchaikovsky

"It's beautiful and boring. Too many pieces finish too long after the end." – Stravinsky about Handel's oratorio Theodora.

OTOH Handel's oratorios seem to have directly inspired/influenced Haydn's Creation and Seasons.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Catty. That is a perfect word for him and Stravinsky, probably Hurwitz as well. You know what, I've convinced myself to give him a listen. I hope he's as catty as I hope. Lol.

He can be. Occasionally he has good things to say. But he is extremely valuable when I feel the need for an afternoon nap; I put on one of Dave's hour-long reviews where he covers a 100-CD box set, 10 seconds for each CD, and I'm out like a light in ten minutes.

[Florestan]

"Handel is only fourth rate. He is not even interesting." — Peter Tchaikovsky

Where did you find that? I found this:

In the choral section of the programme we heard a fragment from Handel's oratorio Messiah—the famous "Hallelujah". Handel was an inimitable master in the way he was able to make use of his singers' voices. Without ever overtaxing the choir's vocal means, without ever overstepping the natural limits of each vocal register, he managed to elicit from the choir such splendid mass effects as had never been attained before by any other composers. This also explains why Handel's music, which in itself is extremely dry and colourless (I am speaking of his oratorios, not of his operas, which are written in an altogether different style), is even to this day still able to cause an impression.

I had the opportunity to hear this very same excerpt from Messiah at a concert in the Crystal Palace in London [3], where it was performed by several thousand voices, and there are no words with which I could describe the overwhelming effect of strength and might which this choral movement by Handel produced on the listeners, simply thanks to the expedient and carefully planned use of the choral masses.

RTWT here: https://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/The_Second_Symphony_Concert._Madame_Patti%27s_Benefit_(1872)

See also: https://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/George_Frideric_Handel

[(poco) Sforzando]

Hurwitz is the perfect American critic-cum-antidote to the stereotypical British classical music critic.  You know those gentlemen sit around in smoking jackets and cravats, snifter of sherry in hand, nodding in approval or gently shaking their head in disapproval, muttering in the poshest RP accent something like "no, that just won't do".

Whereas Dave sits around in his Classics Today sweatshirts and calls everything he doesn't like bullshit. The critic as slob.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Back to the subject: Benjamin Britten "developed a particular animosity towards Brahms, whose piano music he had once held in great esteem; in 1952 he confided that he played through all Brahms's music from time to time, 'to see if I am right about him; I usually find that I underestimated last time how bad it was!'"

Why does poor Brahms come in for such a licking?

[Todd]

Whereas Dave sits around in his Classics Today sweatshirts and calls everything he doesn't like bullshit. The critic as slob.

Yes, the perfect American critic. 

Classical music composers, performers, and fans are generally far too self-serious and self-important and they forget that classical music has no social relevance.  That and pervasive cattiness as cited in this thread reminds me of Sayre's Law, but applied to entertainment.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Classical music composers, performers, and fans are generally far too self-serious and self-important and they forget that classical music has no social relevance.  That and pervasive cattiness as cited in this thread reminds me of Sayre's Law, but applied to entertainment.

Sayre: "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low." Having served in the English department of a nondescript Eastern college for seven years, I can certainly attest to that. Oh, the fights we had over our attendance policy for freshman composition classes!

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

"A tub of pork and beer."
– Hector Berlioz

Is Berlioz describing Handel's music here, or Handel himself?

And, unless you're a vegetarian &/or teetotaler, I see nothing offensive about this.

Somebody mentioned Boulez upthread. He had a habit of insulting and disparaging certain composers, but conducted them anyway, and quite well too.