Return (sort of)

[Todd]

If "misogynist" is too offensive, perhaps "beholder supremacist" might make the problem more clear.

No need to get fancy.  The word "sexist" works well enough.  Back to basics. 

Wang, who has done more for classical music than this entire forum combined entire existence - a whore.

Wang's treatment is more pronounced than some other female artists, but it happens with others.  If you were so inclined, you could find similar though less extreme comments about Hilary Hahn, on this very forum, with regard to several of her album covers.  Anna Gourari, too.  I do not recall if Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg has received such treatment here - she is in her 60s now, after all - but her commentary on this subject, going back decades, more or less confirms several openly sexist forms of behavior and commentary are the norm in the classical music world. 

Anyone who thinks that Wang looks particularly sexualized or whorish has a peculiarly outdated view of both women and sexuality.  It's quite Puritanical, really.

[Iota]

Please don't create a caricature of me as "misogynist" when I refer to only one specific and egregious case which if anything sets back the cause of taking women seriously as musical artists.

It seems to me rather, to further the cause of women deciding themselves how they want to dress. As well as being a bold and liberating step.

[Spotted Horses]

Anyone who has been to a beach, a nightclub, a New Years eve party, knows that it is common for people to show much more skin than Yuja Wang does. What makes Yuja Wang's wardrobe bracing is that she wears it in a concert hall, where we expect to see female performers look like they stepped out of an Edith Wharton novel.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Thank you all for the gang-up. Must be a lot of fun for some of you, to pile up on poor old moi with all these straw-man arguments. And oh, you forgot the one where I was called a "half-wit." Surely you can get some mileage out of that.

If the goal is to hound me off the forum, you have failed. I am not leaving, nor will I start a lengthy thread to complain about how the board has degenerated (people have been saying the same thing for decades), or how hurt I am that some members are violating the rules (they always have, and always will), or how the moderators are either too trigger-happy or too lax in their moderating.

As for the Yuja issue, on my part there is no misogyny, Puritanism, sexism, "beholder suprematicism," or any of these other slurs you care to trot out. I would have the same objection if some hot young guy were to perform the Chopin etudes in a speedo. There is a reason why most concert artists dress neutrally, and that is so as not to distract attention from the music. We don't need to interview Yuja Wang to know she is dressing in a sexually provocative manner. The statement that "anyone who has been to a beach, a nightclub, a New Years eve party, knows that it is common for people to show much more skin than Yuja Wang does" is besides the point. We're not at a beach. There are tacit social conventions that govern how we all dress, speak, and behave in various environments. I'll never forget how at my boss's son's wedding one co-worker showed up in a t-shirt and jeans. It was perceived as disrespectful, and rightly so. And what has worked in the concert hall for the past hundred years continues to work.

Among the relevant good comments on the Pianoworld forum was this one:

People are free to wear whatever they want, but there is a certain hypocrisy in denying that provocative dress is meant to provoke. It would be more honest to say that one is free to choose to resort to sex appeal while playing the piano because it advances one's career, sells more tickets, gets more views, makes many men happy. Because it does.
https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3001118/all/thoughts-on-yuja-wang-outfits.html

So keep up the attacks if you feel you must. They're very amusing, and I'm not going to complain to the moderators about how my tender feelings have been hurt. But maybe some of you ought to give some thought to what I'm saying, and not be so quick with the unfounded accusations.

[Todd]

As for the Yuja issue, on my part there is no misogyny, Puritanism, sexism, "beholder suprematicism," or any of these other slurs you care to trot out.

Of course there is.  Your posts about Yuja Wang are openly and blatantly sexist.  Use of the word whore, in any fashion, to describe her is good, old-fashioned sexism.  You have opted to die on a hill named sexism.  That's fine.

[hopefullytrusting]

If anyone is interested, there's an absolutely, breathtaking brilliant book on this subject: Cheng's Ornamentalism:




One of the best books I've read recently, and ACTUAL contemporary philosophy, unlike some nonsense you might have seen elsewhere.

Also, I don't think anyone wants anyone to leave.

[SimonNZ]

I would have the same objection if some hot young guy were to perform the Chopin etudes in a speedo.

Exactly the how-would-you-like-it I was getting ready to reply myself - though I was also considering a Chippendales stripper-pants and bow-tie outfit.

[Mandryka]

[Todd]

The clothes should go; the cars should remain.  (And point and shoot film cameras are enjoying a minor comeback.)

[(poco) Sforzando]

Also, I don't think anyone wants anyone to leave.

Of course not. Y'all need your punching bags.

[SimonNZ]

Actually, what Yuja reminds me of is Nigel Kennedy doing his punk bit. Are those great Kennedy albums? I'll never know because they suggest he's put image first. If the cover is meant to reflect the content, then the content must be unserious.

[Mapman]

I've cleaned up some recent posts in this thread.

[Karl Henning]

Actually, what Yuja reminds me of is Nigel Kennedy doing his punk bit. Are those great Kennedy albums? I'll never know because they suggest he's put image first. If the cover is meant to reflect the content, then the content must be unserious.

I turned pages for the pianist when he played the Elgar Sonata. He gave a hell of a concert.

[NumberSix]

Actually, what Yuja reminds me of is Nigel Kennedy doing his punk bit. Are those great Kennedy albums? I'll never know because they suggest he's put image first. If the cover is meant to reflect the content, then the content must be unserious.

Kennedy's Four Seasons is the album that sold a zillion copies, and it's pretty good.


What's important IMO is that he drew a lot of non-classical listeners to buy a classical album, including teenage me back in the day. Whatever he did worked, and he definitely could back it up with playing. 

[JBS]

Actually, what Yuja reminds me of is Nigel Kennedy doing his punk bit. Are those great Kennedy albums? I'll never know because they suggest he's put image first. If the cover is meant to reflect the content, then the content must be unserious.

"Great" can be subjective, so I won't use the word. But he is serious about the music, and I think they're worth listening to.

[Todd]

Whatever he did worked, and he definitely could back it up with playing.

Indeed.  Ms Wang is even more famous for her technique than her outfits, at least to those who actually listen to her playing. 

[Karl Henning]

"Great" can be subjective, so I won't use the word. But he is serious about the music, and I think they're worth listening to.

I've not heard all his recordings, but I very much like all those I've heard.

[NumberSix]

Indeed.  Ms Wang is even more famous for her technique than her outfits, at least to those who actually listen to her playing. 

Yep. I agree completely.

[NumberSix]

I saw Solerno-Sonnenberg play in Dallas about 30 years ago, I think. Maybe more recently, but it was a long time ago. She was definitely the Sexy Violin Babe of the day**, which is why I went probably. I wasn't really into classical then. I wanna say she played the Beethoven Concerto, but I am not sure.

At any rate, I remember having a great time. She was energetic and theatrical - and probably played great, though I wouldn't have really known if she had just been "okay".  But she got me to a recital. (See also: Netrebko in 2007)

My point is that IMO there's nothing wrong with a little marketing to draw in the audience.


**who took her place? Mutter, maybe? She did seem to ratchet up the sex appeal in the 90s, based on her album covers.

[hopefullytrusting]

For me, I always compared Wang to Han-Na Chang (Prokofiev's Sinfonia Concetante), a cellist, because they entered the scene with unparalleled virtuosity, and they "glittered" and "sparkled," but I never saw them as alluring, but perhaps I am not who they are trying to lure? I don't think I've really looked at any person with great skill as attractive or not. I think I'm simply too caught up being amazed by what they are doing. Haven't really thought about it too much.