Return (sort of)

[Todd]

I saw Solerno-Sonnenberg play in Dallas about 30 years ago, I think.

I saw her perform the Brahms VC around the same time.  It was a fine, intense, theatrical performance, and she would routinely stomp on the floor at the end of vigorous solo passages.  She's close to the opposite of the even better Hilary Hahn in my experience, who generally remains more poised and shoots death stares at the conductor and orchestra if they are not up to her standard.

My point is that IMO there's nothing wrong with a little marketing to draw in the audience.

There's ample marketing of both men and women.  More than a few extra-handsome, non-rotund male singers have been dolled up with professional makeup and hair and glamour shots, too.  One can even find the occasional daring shot with the top couple shirt buttons undone without too much difficulty.  But Ms Wang, well some of her dresses and skirts are above the knee - the knee! - and she wears four-inch heels - four!! - so, you know, as has been revealed in GMG, the source of truth about all things classical music, she's just like a whore.  Sure, her Prokofiev smokes almost everyone other than Richter, but those outfits.  They're scandalous.

[JBS]

For me, I always compared Wang to Han-Na Chang (Prokofiev's Sinfonia Concetante), a cellist, because they entered the scene with unparalleled virtuosity, and they "glittered" and "sparkled," but I never saw them as alluring, but perhaps I am not who they are trying to lure? I don't think I've really looked at any person with great skill as attractive or not. I think I'm simply too caught up being amazed by what they are doing. Haven't really thought about it too much.

I have two of her recordings (the Prokofiev and Vivaldi) but never thought she was marketed that way. And she switched to being a conductor some years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han-na_Chang

[Todd]

I don't think I've really looked at any person with great skill as attractive or not.

It only comes into play for me, occasionally, with opera, and then only with female leads.  An example would be Elīna Garanča. It helps her sell some roles, though her singing is the bomb.

[hopefullytrusting]

It only comes into play for me, occasionally, with opera, and then only with female leads.  An example would be Elīna Garanča. It helps her sell some roles, though her singing is the bomb.

I cannot stand that YouTuber, but I love her husband.

Hmmm. I'm definitely the wrong person for this. I say just get the best person for the role, but I get what you (and the rest) are saying.

[Todd]

HI say just get the best person for the role, but I get what you (and the rest) are saying.

Absolutely, and Garanča is up there with the best vocally.  Anna Caterina Antonacci is an even better example as Cassandra, a role I have not heard bettered by anyone.  Back in 2015, had I been able to swing dates by a couple weeks, I could have seen her sing it live in San Francisco.  As it was, I had to settle for Susan Graham as Dido, and she showed why divas get the big bucks. 

[Madiel]

I find it very interesting that their prior quote, in extraordinary bad taste, is also still standing.

That tells us something, I suspect.

I am very much in favour of posts remaining standing, except in extreme cases (like the time on another forum we deleted a link to a site that favoured pedophilia).

It is not the case that moderation consists only of deleting things. Things can remain with a comment.

Having said that, this forum does cast doubt in my mind as we clearly all can't stop talking about something when it hasn't been deleted. But I tend to think that is because the middle ground is absent. We don't often get the kind of message that would resolve a matter. Instead we either get deletion or a perception that nothing at all was done.

Sometimes this is because the moderators try doing thing behind the scenes. The problem with this is when people want to SEE evidence that a thing was noticed and action was taken.

Deleting something that's in bad taste? Hmm. I haven't even looked at it to see how bad the taste is, but I would think the main response to something in bad taste is to say it's in bad taste. Though preferably once, clearly, from a moderator, not over and over again forever after from the entire gallery.

[Kalevala]

As it was, I had to settle for Susan Graham as Dido, and she showed why divas get the big bucks. 

She's a wonderful singer and also (from the tiny bit of time that I was lucky to be around her) a lovely person.

K

[NumberSix]

I cannot stand that YouTuber, but I love her husband.

Hmmm. I'm definitely the wrong person for this. I say just get the best person for the role, but I get what you (and the rest) are saying.

Elina and Elizabeth


LeSigh

[Madiel]

By the way, a man in speedos is only functionally equivalent to a woman in a bikini. Not a woman in any form of evening dress.

I considered whether I would want to watch a musician perform in either of these kinds of swimwear and the answer is no.

Edit: but if a man decides to perform wearing a sleeveless top, call me.

[hopefullytrusting]

Elina and Elizabeth

LeSigh

I just cannot make it through her videos. She hems and haws for so long, as I said, I love her husband (he does a video each April 1, and I like her in those videos, as you can her laughing the entire time).

She also seems like a super nice person, so that's cool as well.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Deleting something that's in bad taste? Hmm. I haven't even looked at it to see how bad the taste is, but I would think the main response to something in bad taste is to say it's in bad taste.

Oh go ahead, read it. Then you too can join in the attack.

[steve ridgway]

I'd be interested to know whether Ms. Wang feels her outfit affects her mood and energy, affects the way she plays. I.E. if she might dress for the impact it makes on herself.

[Madiel]

Oh go ahead, read it. Then you too can join in the attack.

What if I don't want to?

Given what I've said above, if (emphasis on if) you made comments that went too far, my preferred course would've been for a moderator, clearly putting their moderator hat on, to state that that sort of comment shouldn't be made.

As I'm largely immune to feminine wiles there's a limit to what I can say about whether a woman's dress is too provocative. Though I agree with the post that pointed out some of this has to do with specific expectations for the concert hall that are probably outdated (and maybe anachronistic given the stories of what used to happen when Liszt performed).

My other small observation is that, with my VERY limited knowledge of how female prostitutes dress, I don't think most of them dress very stylishly.

But whether I think your views/mental anssociations are correct is a different question to whether I think you should be attacked for saying how you react.

Finally, I don't know if anyone's considered the sheer practicality of an outfit. I know of at least one pianist who, while dressing in a completely different style to Yuja Wang, absolutely considered freedom of movement in the design of their concert outfits. People dress both for how they look AND how they feel.

[AnotherSpin]

Of course not. Y'all need your punching bags.

No one is punching you. Accusations of sexism seem unnecessary to me. People see things differently, everyone has their own criteria and boundaries of what is acceptable. Some people are bothered by Yuja Wang's outfits, as it clearly the case with you, while others are not, like me (as I mentioned right away in the original thread). As for questionable outfits or projected images, did it really start with Yuja? What would you say, for example, about this?

[AnotherSpin]

Lol.

I cannot believe they got anyone to do that.

Is that a pool floaty?

Don't ask me. I have a few things to say about this video in particular and about Mrs.N in general that will earn me an immediate lifelong ban from this forum

[Florestan]

Deleting something that's in bad taste? Hmm. I haven't even looked at it to see how bad the taste is, but I would think the main response to something in bad taste is to say it's in bad taste. Though preferably once, clearly, from a moderator, not over and over again forever after from the entire gallery.

Yes, this. I don't agree with @(poco) Sforzando 's opinion but I think he's perfectly entitled both to have and to express it. Relentlessly castigating him for exercising what I should have thought was a basic right in a free society strikes me as very odd and very alarming. Are we heading towards a society where everybody should think and speak the same way and nobody dares to think and speak differently for fear of being relentlessly reprimanded as an enemy of the people? Been there, done that so thanks but no, thanks.

[Spotted Horses]

I'd be interested to know whether Ms. Wang feels her outfit affects her mood and energy, affects the way she plays. I.E. if she might dress for the impact it makes on herself.

I think that is not far from her attitude. She delights in defying expectations, as she expresses it. She highlights a quote from an interview on her web site, "If the music is beautiful and sensual, why not dress to fit.?"

https://yujawang.com/yuja-wang-if-the-music-is-beautiful-and-sensual-why-not-dress-to-fit/

Yes, this. I don't agree with @(poco) Sforzando 's opinion but I think he's perfectly entitled both to have and to express it. Relentlessly castigating him for exercising what I should have thought was a basic right in a free society strikes me as very odd and very alarming. Are we heading towards a society where everybody should think and speak the same way and nobody dares to think and speak differently for fear of being relentlessly reprimanded as an enemy of the people? Been there, done that so thanks but no, thanks.

Please, does everything have to come back to Romanian communism? No one is sending Mr. Rinkle to prison. The rules of the site say you must be polite and considerate, and it is not polite, considerate to the women on this site to call a brilliant performer a whore because she dresses in fancy clothes, particularly because calling a woman a whore is a traditional canard used to denigrate women who do not conform to restrictive gender roles.

[Florestan]

Please, does everything have to come back to Romanian communism?

I'm sorry but I can't help noticing that several features of and trends within present-day Western society are alarmingly similar.

[Madiel]

Yeah. GMG is not a country. We don't have any kind of separation of powers, but neither does any other forum.

One of the characteristics of freedom of speech, though, is that it tends to include the ability of one ordinary citizen to say, within limits, that what another ordinary citizen said or did was pretty shit. Many of the limits are not legal ones but societal ones.

It is always a mistake to think that freedom of speech means freedom from any consequences. It only ever means freedom from punishment by the state.

[Florestan]

One of the characteristics of freedom of speech, though, is that it tends to include the ability of one ordinary citizen to say, within limits, that what another ordinary citizen said or did was pretty shit. Many of the limits are not legal ones but societal ones.

Agreed on all counts, but when an ordinary citizen says shit in two posts and a group of other ordinary citizens rebuke and ridicule him in two pages and counting, something's amiss.