Composers: notation question for timpani

[(poco) Sforzando]

For timpani rolls: tr sign (with or w/o wavy line), wavy line w/o tr, or tremolo?

[relm1]

Tremelo is better.  Behind Bars: The Definitive Guide to Music Notation says "percussionists prefer the trill sign to be reserved for the true two-note trills of tuned percussion" so tremelo is preferred for unmeasured, fast repeated notes.

[Karl Henning]

Tremolo bars through the stem.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Tremelo is better.  Behind Bars: The Definitive Guide to Music Notation says "percussionists prefer the trill sign to be reserved for the true two-note trills of tuned percussion" so tremelo is preferred for unmeasured, fast repeated notes.

But Gould also writes: "Rolls are often written as trills. In drum parts a trill always means a roll on a single drum" (p. 292).

[Luke]

This is true, but the tremolo lines are much better IMO. They are a more accurate reflection of what is actually played

[(poco) Sforzando]

This is true, but the tremolo lines are much better IMO. They are a more accurate reflection of what is actually played

Are they? explain me this then. Both tremolo lines and trill on the same page. Are they interchangeable, or is the one measured and the other not?

[(poco) Sforzando]

I am involved in a debate over this issue on another forum, where some are claiming that the tr is "antiquated" (sort of like figured bass, soprano clefs, or ficta I suppose).

As for the claim that the tr symbol is "antiquated," if so, then since when, sez who, and on what evidence?

"Rolls are often written as trills. In drum parts a trill always means a roll on a single drum" (Elaine Gould, Behind Bars, 2011, p. 292).

"The roll may be written in either of these ways: trill or tremolo" (Kent Kennan, The Technique of Orchestration, 1952, p. 198).

"The roll is notated as a trill" (Walter Piston, Orchestration, 1955, p. 299).

"Rolls may be notated in one of the following two ways: tremolo or trill" (Black and Gerou, Essential Dictionary of Orchestration, 3rd edition, 1998, p. 270).

"A roll may be notated in one of two ways: trill or tremolo" (Samuel Adler, The Study of Orchestration, 2nd edition, 1989, p. 393).

"The roll (trill) comes superbly from all timpani" (Bernard Rogers, The Art of Orchestration, 1951, p. 70).

On the other hand the "antiquated" crowd will be happy with these:

"Before the 20th century drum rolls were notated with the trill sign" (Jonathan Peters, Orchestration, 2018, p. 122).

"In older music a trill sign was used to indicate a roll. This symbol should never be used for this purpose, since it is possible to play trills on many percussion instruments, and therefore the trill sign should be reserved for such use" (Alfred Blatter, Instruments/Orchestration, 1995, p. 178).

In other words, only two of these authorities support the "antiquated" position, and in fact examples of the trill (with or without wavy line) are still easily found in 20th-century scores, such as:
- John Adams, The Chairman Dances, 1987, and Harmonielehre, 1985
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-miOz2Dog8&t=314s
- Benjamin Britten, The Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra, 1945 (though the War Requiem, 1962, uses the tremolo)
- Dmitri Shostakovich, Symphonies 5, 1937, and 8, 1943 (though 15 from 1971 uses the tremolo)
- Michael Torke, Ash, 1988
- Einojuhani Rautavaara, Symphony No. 7, 1994
- Harold Shapero, Symphony for Classical Orchestra, 1947   
- William Kraft, Concerto for Timpani, 1983
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5bTpyk9mqM&t=1029s
- Elliott Carter, Eight Pieces for Four Timpani, 1949, 1966
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEP6ZGHVK5g

A third style altogether is the use of a wavy line without a tr sign, as can be found in the Concertos for Orchestra by Elliott Carter, 1969 and Witold Lutoslawski, 1954.

Besides, the tremolo is not "new" while the trill is "old," Berlioz having used the tremolo exclusively in his timpani writing in the Requiem and Symphonie Fantastique from the 1830s. In fact the slow movement of Beethoven's 4th symphony uses both tremolo and trill on a single page, making me wonder if they were interchangeable or if the tremolo implied a measured vs. unmeasured roll. I saw something similar in the timpani part to the Chopin 2nd piano concerto.

If you want something truly antiquarian in timpani notation, there are the older conventions of notating the timpani pitches as C and G no matter what the tonality, or of placing the pitches on the appropriate staff lines or spaces but without a key signature. But these customs were no longer tenable once Beethoven started tuning the drums in F-F octaves (the extent of their range at that time) in the 8th and 9th symphonies, and when Berlioz started introducing multiple tuned drums.

But if the "antiquarian" convention is good enough for Carter, Adams, or Rautavaara, then it's good enough for me.

[Karl Henning]

I'm not saying it's binding, but I find myself more comfortable using the trill marking for unpitched drums. That said, if I were to look at my scores, chances are high I used tremolo bars for them, as well.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Berg uses the tr for both timpani, snare drum, and bass drum:

[Luke]

Are they? explain me this then. Both tremolo lines and trill on the same page. Are they interchangeable, or is the one measured and the other not?

The latter. The trem lines are a precise, measured doubling of the violins; on the other hand the trill is free. In this situation - an unusual one - the subtle distinction is useful. But nevertheless, though it's a tricky area, I'd say trem lines, especially if set to a metric division small enough to be effectively free, are preferable to trills, even though it is perfectly clear what the latter mean.

[Luke]

Not expressing myself very clearly tonight, it's not a good time...

[(poco) Sforzando]

The latter. The trem lines are a precise, measured doubling of the violins; on the other hand the trill is free. In this situation - an unusual one - the subtle distinction is useful. But nevertheless, though it's a tricky area, I'd say trem lines, especially if set to a metric division small enough to be effectively free, are preferable to trills, even though it is perfectly clear what the latter mean.

Yes, but in most cases, there are three lines used for the tremolo in timp notation. A true roll, methinks, is fast enough that the drumstrokes are indefinite. And if the trem lines in the Beeethoven are measured - demisemiquavers/32nds as in the violas (while the violins are in hemidemisemiquavers/64ths - I'll never get your British conventions straight) - then why not write individual notes as in the strings?

[relm1]

Berg uses the tr for both timpani, snare drum, and bass drum:

Not sure I follow what the point of this example is.  Are you saying some composers used the trill?  Everyone concedes that.  Are you pointing that it's antiquated since I think Berg's last composition were in the 1930's?  That's what we're all saying.  Not sure I follow the point you are trying to make but you seem convinced of your belief, and I quoted from the same source as you that percussionists do not prefer trill except for tuned percussion playing a trill.  This isn't a hard and fast rule but a general preference. 

[San Antone]

When I was in music school as a composition major, I declared percussion as my instrument. Throughout my four years I never saw anything other than the three thick slanted lines above a note (or on the stem) to indicate a roll for snare drum, timpani, cymbal, and other non-pitched instruments.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Not sure I follow what the point of this example is.  Are you saying some composers used the trill?  Everyone concedes that.  Are you pointing that it's antiquated since I think Berg's last composition were in the 1930's?  That's what we're all saying.  Not sure I follow the point you are trying to make but you seem convinced of your belief, and I quoted from the same source as you that percussionists do not prefer trill except for tuned percussion playing a trill.  This isn't a hard and fast rule but a general preference. 

I provided examples where notable recent composers (Rautavaara, Adams, Torke, Carter) still use the trill, and therefore I would not call the practice antiquated.

[prémont]

Not expressing myself very clearly tonight, it's not a good time...

Sorry to see that.

Even if I don't know you that well, my thoughts are often with you because of your horrible situation.

[Luke]

Thank you so much. We were rushed into hospital last night, but then there were hours and hours of waiting all through the night in a frantic A and E department, so not really a conducive place to think through the minutiae of percussion notation.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Thank you so much. We were rushed into hospital last night, but then there were hours and hours of waiting all through the night in a frantic A and E department, so not really a conducive place to think through the minutiae of percussion notation.

I'm so sorry, Luke. I know this must be a very difficult time for you.

- Larry