Low Saxon

[Florestan]

Answer, no, I didn't ("yet", as Jeffrey would say; but I'm just 63 and working). And: fully agreed, read a handful of heavy-loaden novels by Pamuk while visiting Turkey (many times), but enjoyed only Kar (Snow) and his personal book on Istanbul. But, but ... do the two of us really share some tastes??

E.g. Chopin's "Second" concerto in the original setting for sextet I heard last Saturday? (Superbly performed by Anna Fedorova and friends?) Could we ever bridge the gap between you, as a European, and me (Low Saxon)?? 

I've no idea what you are talking about. 

Btw, in another thread you said you still spoke the Saxon language of the 8th century monk Plechelmus. Could you please tell me how did Plechelmus say in Saxon "piano concerto in a minor", "presidential republic" and "atomic bomb"? Thanks. 

[Christo]

Btw, in another thread you said you still spoke the Saxon language of the 8th century monk Plechelmus. Could you please tell me how did Plechelmus say in Saxon "piano concerto in a minor", "presidential republic" and "atomic bomb"? Thanks. 

An easy one. Plechelmus & me would say something like, respectively: "'n bonke geluud op de rammlkaste", "noga 'n buutn'laans zooichie'" and "ærg völle lawaai & ok noch 'n bonke romml". Understood? 

[Florestan]

An easy one. Plechelmus & me would say something like, respectively: "'n bonke geluud op de rammlkaste", "noga 'n buutn'laans zooichie'" and "ærg völle lawaai & ok noch 'n bonke romml". Understood? 

Google Translate understood, identifying the first and last as Dutch and the second as Limburgisch. 

They're pretty good. Plechelmus got the second especially right. 

[Christo]

Google Translate understood, identifying the first and last as Dutch and the second as Limburgisch. 

They're pretty good. Plechelmus got the second especially right. 

DEEPL (much better than Google Translate) can't make anything of it, in any language. But you're right: Google Translate doesn't read Saxon/Hanseatic ('Saxon' is a typical 19th-century invention of tradition, the lingua franca of the Hanseatic world of towns & cities around the North & Baltic Seas (used by all merchants plus the English, Swedish and even Russian courts - Peter the Great spoke it - until the 1800s, when French took over. ALL English/American 'Dutch' loanwords (boss, dollar, bulwark, even 'boulevard', etc.) are in fact derived from this language, which today is spoken by some 12 million northern Germans & 2 million eastern Dutch -- an officially recognised language BTW, not a dialect, in Thomas Mann's Buddenbrooks the pater familiae speaks in it all the time, mixed with a little French, French derivations survive in my own mother tongue too, e.g. g. we don't say the letter h -- bu said Google Translate reads something ridiculous, St. Plechelmus would never have said such nonsense:

"A loud noise on the rattle cabinet, quite a bit of noise and a lot of noise and also a loud noise." Al UTTER nonsense, especially the word "noise"." How dares GT!

[Florestan]

DEEPL (much better than Google Translate) can't make anything of it, in any language. But you're right: Google Translate doesn't read Saxon/Hanseatic ('Saxon' is a typical 19th-century invention of tradition, the lingua franca of the Hanseatic world of towns & cities around the North & Baltic Seas (used by all merchants plus the English, Swedish and even Russian courts - Peter the Great spoke it - until the 1800s, when French took over. ALL English/American 'Dutch' loanwords (boss, dollar, bulwark, even 'boulevard', etc.) are in fact derived from this language, which today is spoken by some 12 million northern Germans & 2 million eastern Dutch -- an officially recognised language BTW, not a dialect, in Thomas Mann's Buddenbrooks the pater familiae speaks in it all the time, mixed with a little French, French derivations survive in my own mother tongue too, e.g. g. we don't say the letter h -- bu said Google Translate reads something ridiculous, St. Plechelmus would never have said such nonsense:
"A loud noise on the rattle cabinet, quite a bit of noise and a lot of noise and also a loud noise." Al UTTER nonsense, especially the word "noise"." How dares GT!

Okay, now you really made me curious. What is the correct translation for the three sentences you wrote?

[Christo]

Okay, now you really made me curious. What is the correct translation for the three sentences you wrote?

Again, obvious. In (slightly modernized) transliteration: "piano concerto around something minor", "un-Napoleonic commonwealth of some elite" and "nuclear gun powder." Thanks. ;-)

[Florestan]

Again, obvious. In (slightly modernized) transliteration: "piano concerto around something minor", "un-Napoleonic commonwealth of some elite" and "nuclear gun powder." Thanks.

You mock me and I don't appreciate it.

[Christo]

You mock me and I don't appreciate it.

I didn't know and I do apologize. Some sort of translation in English (Dutch & German come easier to me) would be:

Plechelmus & me would say something like, respectively: "'n bonke geluud op de rammlkaste", "noga 'n buutn'laans zooichie'" and "ærg völle lawaai & ok noch 'n bonke romml"

or: "lots of piano rattling," "some foreign political constructs," and "a lot of noise and even much more damage." Comprendo?

[Florestan]

I didn't know and I do apologize. Some sort of translation in English (Dutch & German come easier to me) would be: or: "lots of piano rattling," "some foreign political constructs," and "a lot of noise and even much more damage." Comprendo?

Much clearer now. I might have overreacted. I too apologize, for Pamuk's and Chopin's sake.

[Christo]

Much clearer now. I might have overreacted. I too apologize, for Pamuk's and Chopin's sake.

Muchas gracias. Here at the Arctic Circle the choleric type - I will not say Latin, or even south-of-Siebenbürgen, Vlach character - is indeed less common. Especially we "Saxons" (19th century pseudo-academic misnomer for the lingua franca of the Hanseatic League c. 1300-1800 led by (Thomas Mann's) mother city Lübeck, but varying by region, although in common use for merchants - also Renaissance scholars like Agricola or Ubbo Emmius - between London, Bruges, Antwerp, Bergen, Kristiania (Oslo), Gothenburg, Aalborg, Århus, Helsingborg, Copenhagen, Malmö, Lübeck, Rostock, Danzig (Gdansk), Königsberg, Klaipėda (Memel), Kaunas, Kalmar, Gotland (Visby), Stockholm, Riga, Reval (Tallinn), Tartu, Narvik, Helsingborg all the way to beyond St. Petersburg, Novgorod, Moscow (where young Peter learned the language in the trading colony there long before his foundation of "Piter" in 1703, he used this language during his travels to Western Europe and also London) and via the Barends Sea the only access for a long time, because the Swedes dominated the Baltic Sea until 1709/1721, the port of Archangelsk (where the Saxon "Dutch" Reformed churches still stand, as in most of the ports & cities mentioned).

Yes, I saw most of these cities myself, and everywhere you see the pious inscriptions in "Low Saxon" on the facades of houses and warehouses from before 1800, in some areas used to this day. So you can read it with your own eyes in hundreds, maybe thousands? of former "Hanseatic" cities (although many were not officially admitted), along all rivers in the North and Baltic Sea areas, far into Germany, Poland, Denmark, Sweden, the Baltic countries, along the coast of Finland, in Russia, the Low Countries, etc. Although I myself mainly travelled to the rest of Europe, esp. Mediterranean countries (almost all "Mediterranean countries" done by now, I counted exactly 20, with Morocco added last Summer), I will visit Tunisia with my family this summer: even there inscriptions stemming from the Hanseatic & language can be found in hundreds Mediterranian ports. Hope to see you somewhere (was back at the three-languages University of Cluj for six days in October, too far from Bucharest, greetings!) Johan

[Christo]

Much clearer now.

Fye: Low Saxon, "mother tongue of all Anglo-Saxons", here only as spoken and written in German-Dutch border regions, the more western parts of the "Veluwe" was hollandized as a poor farming area from the 17th century onwards, the richer Hanseatic towns & cities only after the Second World War: "Hollandish" was not a city language to them, but a socially lower dialect; som of the eastern nobility still speak the Hanseatic ("Saxon") language, in addition to French, just like in Buddenbrooks by Thomas Mann (placed in Lübeck). (BTW I myself only learned English long after high school: from 1990 on, before that I could only read English, later than Dutch, German and French (or Latin, Greek, even some Spanish).
                                               

[Florestan]

Here at the Arctic Circle the choleric type - I will not say Latin, or even south-of-Siebenbürgen, Vlach character - is indeed less common.

You might be on to something: I felt much more at ease in Grenoble than in Eindhoven, in Venice than in Amsterdam, in Seville than in Utrecht and in Naples than in Den Haag. In Athens and Constantinople I felt downright at home.

London, Bruges, Antwerp, Bergen, Kristiania (Oslo), Gothenburg, Aalborg, Århus, Helsingborg, Copenhagen, Malmö, Lübeck, Rostock, Danzig (Gdansk), Königsberg, Klaipėda (Memel), Kaunas, Kalmar, Gotland (Visby), Stockholm, Riga, Reval (Tallinn), Tartu, Narvik, Helsingborg all the way to beyond St. Petersburg, Novgorod, Moscow

I've visited Bruges and Antwerp. Beautiful cities, I especially loved the former. 

Fye: Low Saxon, "mother tongue of all Anglo-Saxons", here only as spoken and written in German-Dutch border regions

I guess this is that "German" language about which Charles V said he spoke it to his horse: I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, and German to my horse.

Hope to see you somewhere (was back at the three-languages University of Cluj for six days in October, too far from Bucharest, greetings!) Johan

Next time you come to Romania just let me know. I'll do the same if I go to The Netherlands. Meanwhile, greetings to a Low Saxon from a Byzantine (18-th century pseudo-academic misnomer for Eastern Roman). Cura ut valeas!

[Christo]

You might be on to something: I felt much more at ease in Grenoble than in Eindhoven, in Venice than in Amsterdam, in Seville than in Utrecht and in Naples than in Den Haag. In Athens and Constantinople I felt downright at home.

I've visited Bruges and Antwerp. Beautiful cities, I especially loved the former. 

I guess this is that "German" language about which Charles V said he spoke it to his horse: I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, and German to my horse.

Next time you come to Romania just let me know. I'll do the same if I go to The Netherlands. Meanwhile, greetings to a Low Saxon from a Byzantine (18-th century pseudo-academic misnomer for Eastern Roman). Cura ut valeas!

Each time, you're more than right. I feel at home in all places you mention, but also in Utrecht (totally diferent from Amsterdam, waaaays older and more on its own) and especially in the wild eastern towns and cities, even older than Utrecht, but of course no Mediterranean or Central European places. The town where we live now, 30 miles to the east of Utrecht, 50 minutes per direct train (5 times an hour) from Amsterdam, is as a settlement about 5,300 years old (first peasants in this corner of Europe, probably). We do a daily walk into the forest, we live next to it in a restiled 1908 barracks in Swiss-Dutch chalet style, refurnished thoug. Greetz, love Chopin too, johan 

[Florestan]

Each time, you're more than right. I feel at home in all places you mention, but also in Utrecht (totally diferent from Amsterdam, waaaays older and more on its own) and especially in the wild eastern towns and cities, even older than Utrecht, but of course no Mediterranean or Central European places.

It's clearly a cultural thing. I lived in Eindhoven for almost a year and my best friends there were a Greek, a Spaniard, two Italians and a French babe. Other members of our gang included a few other Italians and Frenchmen, a Turk and a Bulgarian babe. It was instant understanding and friendship from the first meeting in each case.

[Christo]

I've visited Bruges and Antwerp. Beautiful cities, I especially loved the former. 

I guess this is that "German" language about which Charles V said he spoke it to his horse: I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, and German to my horse.

You might be on to something: I felt much more at ease in Grenoble than in Eindhoven, in Venice than in Amsterdam, in Seville than in Utrecht and in Naples than in Den Haag. In Athens and Constantinople I felt downright at home.

I've visited Bruges and Antwerp. Beautiful cities, I especially loved the former. 

I guess this is that "German" language about which Charles V said he spoke it to his horse: I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, and German to my horse.

Next time you come to Romania just let me know. I'll do the same if I go to The Netherlands. Meanwhile, greetings to a Low Saxon from a Byzantine (18-th century pseudo-academic misnomer for Eastern Roman). Cura ut valeas!

o Romania just let me know. I'll do the same if I go to The Netherlands. Meanwhile, greetings to a Low Saxon from a Byzantine (18-th century pseudo-academic misnomer for Eastern Roman). Cura ut valeas!

Hi Andrei,
Bruges and Antwerp are really beautiful, as are Ghent and Mechelen. All four were not bombed in WWII, unlike the Dutch medieval towns of Eindhoven (originally a small town, the Philips company made it grow in the last century), Venlo, Roermond, Nijmegen (Roman even), Arnhem, Doetinchem, Enschedé, Groningen -- all by British or US bombers who mistook them for German towns; Eindhoven, Nijmegen and Arnhem also during Operation Market Garden ('A Bridge Too Far') in 1944. Still beautiful are Maastricht, Utrecht and all the other Hanseatic and pre-Hanseatic cities (Zutphen, Deventer, Zwolle, Kampen, etc.) where Low Saxon is spoken. 
Charles V grew up in Brussels, capital of the Duchy of Brabant and cradle of the Dutch language (which was also influenced by the Holland dialect in the Golden Age of the 17th century). He spoke late medieval Dutch, a language that influenced the much later formed High German language, but was/is very different from the Low Saxon of the northeastern Netherlands and northern Germany to this day. (The word 'Dutch' is of course the same as 'Deutsch' in Deutschland ('Germany'), just as the 'Pensylvanian Dutch' (Amish) do not actually speak Dutch, but a branch of southern German).
You are always more than welcome in our rather beautiful home; I will show you any town of your liking in the area (all within an hour by car or train). My preference is early medieval towns like Zuthphen or Deventer, Low Saxon of course.😊 Otherwise (Roman) Utrecht. I myself often give historical/cultural tours of cities such as Utrecht, Deventer, Amsterdam, Leiden, Brussels, Trier and Metz - all beautiful IMHO.
I read Nicolae Iorga, Byzantium after Byzantium, it stands here next to my desk. Plus everything else I could find about Romania and all the other Roman (''Byzantine'') areas I travelled (a lot). Over the years, I wrote some 25 essays on my findings in various places for a national newspaper. And now back to our favourite novels, greetz, Johan

[Florestan]

Bruges and Antwerp are really beautiful, as are Ghent and Mechelen. All four were not bombed in WWII,

Another Belgian city which I liked is Liege (Luik).

unlike the Dutch medieval towns of Eindhoven (originally a small town, the Philips company made it grow in the last century), Venlo, Roermond, Nijmegen (Roman even), Arnhem, Doetinchem, Enschedé, Groningen -- all by British or US bombers who mistook them for German towns; Eindhoven, Nijmegen and Arnhem also during Operation Market Garden ('A Bridge Too Far') in 1944. Still beautiful are Maastricht, Utrecht and all the other Hanseatic and pre-Hanseatic cities (Zutphen, Deventer, Zwolle, Kampen, etc.) where Low Saxon is spoken. 

I visited, and liked, Enschede, Nijmegen, Arnhem (including the reconstructed bridge and museum) and Maastricht (the latter not least for the surrounding hilly landscape). I lived for a while in Vermeer's Delft, which is quite lovely. But the part of The Netherlands I liked best was Zeeland, particularly the charming seaside town of Zierikzee. I visited the region and the town in a glorious late summer day. It was all sunlit, quiet, green-and-clean. I loved it.

Charles V grew up in Brussels, capital of the Duchy of Brabant and cradle of the Dutch language (which was also influenced by the Holland dialect in the Golden Age of the 17th century). He spoke late medieval Dutch, a language that influenced the much later formed High German language, but was/is very different from the Low Saxon of the northeastern Netherlands and northern Germany to this day. (The word 'Dutch' is of course the same as 'Deutsch' in Deutschland ('Germany'), just as the 'Pensylvanian Dutch' (Amish) do not actually speak Dutch, but a branch of southern German).

I took a Dutch course while in Eindhoven and got proficient enough to be able to read the newspapers. Speaking and understanding it when spoken was a lot more difficult, though. Interestingly enough, I understood Flemish Dutch better, it seemed to me their pronunciation was stronger and clearer.

You are always more than welcome in our rather beautiful home; I will show you any town of your liking in the area (all within an hour by car or train). My preference is early medieval towns like Zuthphen or Deventer, Low Saxon of course.😊 Otherwise (Roman) Utrecht. I myself often give historical/cultural tours of cities such as Utrecht, Deventer, Amsterdam, Leiden, Brussels, Trier and Metz - all beautiful IMHO.

You're very kind. I've visited Brussels but if and when I'll go back to The Netherlands I'd love to see Leiden. I've seen Trier and Aachen from the train on my way from Bucharest to Brussels. The German cities I've visited by foot are Munich, Stuttgart and Frankfurt. Once I took in Metz the train for Lyon. But it was all a long time ago, I feel old and nostalgic thinking about it.

I read Nicolae Iorga, Byzantium after Byzantium, it stands here next to my desk. Plus everything else I could find about Romania and all the other Roman (''Byzantine'') areas I travelled (a lot). Over the years, I wrote some 25 essays on my findings in various places for a national newspaper.

Iorga was rather nationalist and prone to hyperbole and exaggeration, especially in that book, but his erudition is impressive.

[Christo]

Another Belgian city which I liked is Liege (Luik).

I visited, and liked, Enschede, Nijmegen, Arnhem (including the reconstructed bridge and museum) and Maastricht (the latter not least for the surrounding hilly landscape). I lived for a while in Vermeer's Delft, which is quite lovely. But the part of The Netherlands I liked best was Zeeland, particularly the charming seaside town of Zierikzee. I visited the region and the town in a glorious late summer day. It was all sunlit, quiet, green-and-clean. I loved it.

I took a Dutch course while in Eindhoven and got proficient enough to be able to read the newspapers. Speaking and understanding it when spoken was a lot more difficult, though. Interestingly enough, I understood Flemish Dutch better, it seemed to me their pronunciation was stronger and clearer.

You're very kind. I've visited Brussels but if and when I'll go back to The Netherlands I'd love to see Leiden. I've seen Trier and Aachen from the train on my way from Bucharest to Brussels. The German cities I've visited by foot are Munich, Stuttgart and Frankfurt. Once I took in Metz the train for Lyon. But it was all a long time ago, I feel old and nostalgic thinking about it.

Iorga was rather nationalist and prone to hyperbole and exaggeration, especially in that book, but his erudition is impressive.

My favourites in Flanders -- the ones I visited, Brussels I did dozens of times, I don't need a map for that great city -- are Ghent, Bruges, Antwerp, Lier, Mechelen, Leuven (Louvain, though heavily destroyed by WWI), and Tongeren (a Roman city to this day). Walloon cities I have seen less often, but indeed Liege (Liège, Lüttich, Lieja, whatever you like), Namur, Mons, Dinant, Spa.

Zeeland -- for me a long drive from the central Netherlands, my town is between Utrecht and Arnhem, where there is the beautiful church with all the counts of the dukedoms of Gelre, ie European princes & princesses from all over, finally restored (destroyed during the Battle of Arnhem Bridge, 1944, the whole region was heavily involved, I live in what used to be the German 'Bismarck Barracks' in these days crowded with German and Dutch SS -- is VERY beautiful, although much destruction of towns and villages during WWI (British bombardment of Vlissingen/Flushing and Middelburg, my favourite author William Golding was involved as a navy officer and often returned there after the war). From what I visited, the most beautiful town is old Veere, a beauty. Also Middelburg, Vlissingen, Domburg, and a couple towns in Zeeland Flanders (the occupied northern coastal region of Flanders, kingdom of France in the later Middle Ages, with Roman towns like Aardenburg and a dozen forts around towns during the 40-year war with Sun King Louis XIV -- as there are dozens in southern Belgium and northern France from that period. Often beautiful, these fortified old towns, with 'grand' views from the bastions.

I did the same: Romanian summer school in August 2000 with a Dutch resident in a small village 40 kilometres south of Oradea/Nagyvárad/Grosswardein. 😊 Twice 4 days, the four days in between I spent in Maramureș -- a revelation! After these 8 days, we were supposed to have a chat with a local farming family -- two cows, four pigs -- but they misunderstood me and brought a quantity of Țuică (I had to, couldn't refuse in proper Romanian). I was, and still am, able to 'read the newspaper' (as they existed then, I read Focus magazine in Timișoara every year, about the best I could get).

'Flemish Dutch' is a mystery. Sometimes I hear people speaking an unfamiliar language on the train only to find out that they are actually Belgian. On the other hand, 'they' know everything about the Netherlands (but it is also hard for them to imagine that 'we' actually have four official languages (Dutch, Frisian, Low Saxon and Limburgian) where they only master three: Dutch, French and German.

If you manage to visit 'Holland' (the westernmost part, only two of our 12 provinces), your best options for 'old' towns and cities, from north to south are: Enkhuizen, Hoorn, Alkmaar, Haarlem, Amsterdam, Leiden, Gouda, The Hague (no city rights ever, it shows), Delft, (Rotterdam was destroyed at the beginning of WWII, never rebuilt), Dordrecht. All basically 17th century Golden Age stuff, very postmodern, except Dordrecht and Leiden, which followed close on the heels of the great medieval cities of the southern Netherlands (now including northern France).

Reading Iorga was big fun. The inferiority complex that Romanians may exhibit, like Ukrainians and Poles for similar reasons, pays off well. You are uniquely Byzantine, that's for sure. Like about 20 other nations, but still. :-)

Feeling old & nostalgic is daily reality for a 63-year-old who survived a cardiac arrest and had to recover for more than two years (2021-2023). Yet even my musical memory came back, after 3 years. I had been listening to music since I was a three-year-old peasant boy, I 'could even whistle music before I could talk', according to my late mother. So, nothing but joy and gratitude.

[Florestan]

My favourites in Flanders -- the ones I visited, Brussels I did dozens of times, I don't need a map for that great city -- are Ghent, Bruges, Antwerp, Lier, Mechelen, Leuven (Louvain, though heavily destroyed by WWI), and Tongeren (a Roman city to this day). Walloon cities I have seen less often, but indeed Liege (Liège, Lüttich, Lieja, whatever you like), Namur, Mons, Dinant, Spa.

the most beautiful town is old Veere, a beauty

You see? It shows that my time in The Netherlands was a quarter of a century ago, my memory starts to fail me. I too visited Leuven (actually, stayed there for some weeks, go figure), Namur and Dinant. And in Zeeland it's actually Veere that I loved best. 

Reading Iorga was big fun. The inferiority complex that Romanians may exhibit, like Ukrainians and Poles for similar reasons, pays off well. You are uniquely Byzantine, that's for sure. Like about 20 other nations, but still. :-)

Well, the Eastern Roman Empire stretched across many actual countries, so it's only natural that each of them claims something of their heritage.

Speaking about the inferiority complex, Iorga was a moderate and at least had several historical archives to back up his claims. The present-time Romanian nationalists go much farther than he'd have gone in his wildest fancies: Latin is derived from Romanian, not the other way around, the Dacians were the oldest people in Europe, who taught writing to all others, including Greeks and Romans, and they flew helicopters as far as North America. Oh, and of course, the Germans and the Dutch are their descendants, because what else can Deutsch or Duits mean if not Daci (Romanian word for Dacians, pronounced more or less as "Dutch") ? I'm not kidding you, these and other in(s)anities are published in books and articles and discussed in "scientific" meetings and congresses. That no scholar in their right mind takes them seriously, let alone engage them, is evidence for them of a big conspiracy to suppress the truth, a conspiracy in which Jews, Freemasons, Soros and other foreigners hostile to poor Romanians are heavily involved. 

[Florestan]

Feeling old & nostalgic is daily reality for a 63-year-old who survived a cardiac arrest and had to recover for more than two years (2021-2023). Yet even my musical memory came back, after 3 years. I had been listening to music since I was a three-year-old peasant boy, I 'could even whistle music before I could talk', according to my late mother. So, nothing but joy and gratitude.

That's the spirit, Johan!

Fortunato l'uom che prende
Ogni cosa pel buon verso,
E tra i casi e le vicende
Da ragion guidar si fa.

Quel che suole altrui far piangere
Fia per lui cagion di riso,
E del mondo in mezzo ai turbini
Bella calma proverà.

Cura ut valeas, amice!

[Christo]

Dante (you know, one Alighieri; most German composers dedicated pieces 'An Dante') would have answered in Low Saxon:

De opebeu'de fantasie ontbrek 't ier an ve'meung;
Ma a drein mien velangn en mien wille,
Zels as een rad det gelieke beweungn wördt,

De liefde die de zönne en aandere stærn bewög.