the saddest music

[Guido]

Not particularly "sad", perhaps, but IMHO music is hardly capable of expressing sadness at all.

I find this statement extremely odd. What do you think Barber's Adagio is expressing, or When I am laid down in earth is expressing?

[jochanaan]

At the very top of my list: The final scene from Poulenc's Dialogues of the Carmelites.  And not just my list: My sister, a jaded opera fan, told me that when she saw that opera live, she sobbed out loud.

As long as I'm here, though, I've got to say that no matter how "sad" the music is, I always feel cleansed when it's done.  Like great tragic drama, it's cathartic.  This is true of the sad movements from Peer Gynt, Mahler's Sixth Symphony and Das Lied von der Erde, the Barber Adagio, Shostakovich's Fourteenth, Gorecki's Third, and most certainly of the aforementioned Dialogues, as well as many other "sad" pieces.

[greg]

At the very top of my list: The final scene from Poulenc's Dialogues of the Carmelites.  And not just my list: My sister, a jaded opera fan, told me that when she saw that opera live, she sobbed out loud.

As long as I'm here, though, I've got to say that no matter how "sad" the music is, I always feel cleansed when it's done.  Like great tragic drama, it's cathartic.  This is true of the sad movements from Peer Gynt, Mahler's Sixth Symphony and Das Lied von der Erde, the Barber Adagio, Shostakovich's Fourteenth, Gorecki's Third, and most certainly of the aforementioned Dialogues, as well as many other "sad" pieces.

Interesting. I had to revisit the ending to that one, since I hadn't listened in a few years.
(which failed- I'd probably have to see/listen to the whole thing again to "get it.")

[Christo]

I find this statement extremely odd. What do you think Barber's Adagio is expressing, or When I am laid down in earth is expressing?

Of course I see what you mean, and I didn't formulate very well. What I meant was: music is of course capable of expressing sadness, but with me, the listener, the effect is rather the opposite. I don't feel sad at all, when I hear Barber's Adagio. Just beauty and a consoling kind of happiness, to put it simple. About the same applies to all "sad" and "tragic" music. It makes me rather cry of joy than of grief. 

I guess that happens to many. The expression of sadness or tragedy via the vehicle of music has a very different result with the audience. What perhaps comes closest is the rather elaborate attempt of Allan Pettersson. But then, it's rather Angst that he's able to communicatie, not exactly sadness, IMO. 

As long as I'm here, though, I've got to say that no matter how "sad" the music is, I always feel cleansed when it's done.  Like great tragic drama, it's cathartic.  This is true of the sad movements from Peer Gynt, Mahler's Sixth Symphony and Das Lied von der Erde, the Barber Adagio, Shostakovich's Fourteenth, Gorecki's Third, and most certainly of the aforementioned Dialogues, as well as many other "sad" pieces.

That's an even better way of explaining our response to "sad" music. Yes, I totally agree.

[vandermolen]

Agree with Christo and Jowcol's suggestions:

The Simpleton's lament at the end of Mussorgsky's 'Boris Gudonov' is one of the most sad and touching moments in all music that I know. I saw a production in London, years ago, where, at the end, the Simpleton emerges, in darkness, from a pile of bodies on stage - sings his lament and then slowly lies down again - merging back into the pile of bodies - I don't expect to see anything more moving on stage. Also, yes, Tchaikovsky's 'Pathetique' - first and last movement - especially the glowering darkness at the end. Elgar's 'Sospiri' Alan Pettersson's 7th Symphony (ending). End of Mahler's 9th and Bruckner's 9th. End of Shostakovich Symphony 4. Parts of Hanson's 'Elegy for Koussevitsky' has, for me, the unbeatable combination of great sadness, combined with defiance, as does Sainton's wonderful 'Nadir' (a response to witnessing a child's death in the Blitz on Bristol in World War Two). Slow movement of Miaskovsky's valedictory 27th Symphony (he was dying of cancer at the time yet, in many ways, I think that the symphony is a hymn to life). Middle bit of second movement of Miaskovsky's 6th Symphony - a wonderful flute passage which seems to suggest a yearning nostalgia for an irretrievably lost past. Truscott's 'Elegy for String Orchestra'. Ross Edwards' Symphony 'Da Pacem Domine'. Last movement of Malcolm Arnold's 9th Symphony. Parts of Suk's 'Asrael Symphony'. End of Vaughan Williams Symphony No 9 (again sadness merged with hopeless defiance). Climax of last movement of Moeran's Cello Concerto, end of Bax Symphony 7.

[jowcol]

Agree with Christo and Jowcol's suggestions:

The Simpleton's lament at the end of Mussorgsky's 'Boris Gudonov' is one of the most sad and touching moments in all music that I know. I saw a production in London, years ago, where, at the end, the Simpleton emerges, in darkness, from a pile of bodies on stage - sings his lament and then slowly lies down again - merging back into the pile of bodies - I don't expect to see anything more moving on stage.

Every time Jeffrey makes of post about "valedictory" or "hopeless defiance" it always costs me money.  Not that I'm complaining.  I keep a record of all of his examples.

I adore the simpleton's lament-- but Khovanschina wallows in that mood even further.  The entire second half of Khovanschina, from the banishment of Golitsin, is nothing that the sorrow of the Russian people.  The choruses are the real start here, not the soloists.

I also like the Stravinsky orchestration of the final immolation-- unlike the RK, it is ruly "not a bang, but a whimper".

WHoever mentioned the role of catharsis with sad music I totally agree with-- I find overly cheerful music depressing-- I love minor keys, melancholy "classical", and of course, the blues...

[Guido]

The song "Like a Sick Eagle" by Ives is maybe his saddest - the tragic mode is not one often visited by Ives, but in this tiny piece he creates one of the saddest and most moving musical utterances ever committed to the page.

Jan DeGaetani's recording on that classic Ives song disc remains the best version. Heartbreaking stuff.

Jan Swafford has suggested that it was written in relation to his wife Harmony's sudden miscarriage and emergency hysterectomy meaning that they never had their own children.

[Guido]

Sadly it's not on Youtube - the only one there is by Naruki who is generally a great Ives interpreter, but here she sings it too fast. In the DeGaetani version Gilbert Kalish gives incredible support - he's another truly great Ives interpreter.

[vandermolen]

Every time Jeffrey makes of post about "valedictory" or "hopeless defiance" it always costs me money.  Not that I'm complaining.  I keep a record of all of his examples.

I adore the simpleton's lament-- but Khovanschina wallows in that mood even further.  The entire second half of Khovanschina, from the banishment of Golitsin, is nothing that the sorrow of the Russian people.  The choruses are the real start here, not the soloists.

I also like the Stravinsky orchestration of the final immolation-- unlike the RK, it is ruly "not a bang, but a whimper".

WHoever mentioned the role of catharsis with sad music I totally agree with-- I find overly cheerful music depressing-- I love minor keys, melancholy "classical", and of course, the blues...

I thought you'd be 'listening in' Just to say that John is not entirely 'Mr Innocent'  either when it comes to responsibility for fellow GMG Forum members having to fork - out hard earned cash. His recommendation of Ronald Lo Presti (never heard of him before) has already resulted in a purchase of a Koch CD containing Lo Presti's 'The Masks' - the first movement of which I play over and over again - an absolutely beautiful piece.

[Mirror Image]

Thought I would revive this thread for posterity. My list of what I consider the 'saddest' music would be a very long list but a few that spring off the top of my head:

Silvestrov: Symphony No. 5 (Andante movement)
Barber: Cello Concerto (second movement - Andante sostenuto)
Shostakovich: Violin Concerto No. 1 (third movement Passacaglia)
Shostakovich: The Golden Age (Dance of the Diva - Adagio)
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 5 (third movement Largo)
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 7 'Leningrad' - (third movement Adagio)
Part: Cantus in Memoriam Benjamin Britten
Casella: Sinfonia (Symphony No. 3) (second movement - Andante molto moderato quasi adagio)
Tubin: Symphony No. 1 (first movement - Adagio - Allegro Feroce

...more to come, I'm sure.

[Brian]

Here's an offbeat, but I think totally appropriate, suggestion:

"Blind Musicians," the third movement of A Summer's Tale by Josef Suk.

[Mirror Image]

Here's an offbeat, but I think totally appropriate, suggestion:

"Blind Musicians," the third movement of A Summer's Tale by Josef Suk.

Excellent choice. Beautiful movement.

[Madiel]

Barber's Adagio for Strings, absolutely. It became a cliched for a reason.

I haven't listened to it for a while, but I seem to remember Brahms' Clarinet Trio gave me a bit of heartache??

Agree with all the comments about Mahler's capacity for sadness, and Chopin's.

I think there's an argument, though, that you're more likely to get a lot of sadness if you have words. There some pretty powerful lieder out there.
And I'm going to veer into 'popular' music territory to mention the rather folk-ish singer Patty Griffin, because goddamn it, that woman is devastating on a regular basis. Also, a live performance by Tori Amos of a slightly obscure song of hers called Cooling that I'm unlikely ever to forget. This is cooling faster than I can.

[EigenUser]

-Mahler's Symphony No. 9, 4th movement
-Webern's Six Pieces for Orchestra, or perhaps the Symphony
-Ligeti's Lontano (actually, I see it as a combination of 60% sad, 39% creepy, and 1% beautiful)
-Shostakovich's String Quartet No. 8
-Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 6, though I haven't heard it in a long time
-Bartok's Piano Concerto No. 3, 2nd movement -- heart-wrenching, especially with the gong crashes near the end. I even find the 1st movement sad in a way. On the other hand, the slow (2nd) movements of the other piano concertos are just creepy as hell - especially the PC1, which could pass as a bona-fide horror movie score.
-Ravel's Ma Mere l'Oye, V. Le Jardin Feerique. I played this in orchestra a few years ago. Powerful.

Of off the top of my head, three composers that I enjoy that I've yet to hear significant sadness from are Haydn, Stravinsky, and Messiaen. These are my "joyous" composers and respectively fall into the categories of controlled cheerfulness, quirky playfulness, and blinding glory.

[springrite]

-Mahler's Symphony No. 9, 4th movement

Sad? I thought it's one of the most peaceful piece of music I have ever heard.

[EigenUser]

Sad? I thought it's one of the most peaceful piece of music I have ever heard.

Really?? That is the saddest work I've ever heard. Are you joking or being serious?! Not that I'm implying that you are wrong, but I'm just amazed at how different our responses are!

[Madiel]

Really?? That is the saddest work I've ever heard. Are you joking or being serious?! Not that I'm implying that you are wrong, but I'm just amazed at how different our responses are!

Well, you mentioned Bartok's 3rd Piano Concerto, and I can't say that's struck me as sad. Responses are indeed very individual, especially when we're talking about instrumental, non-programmatic music.

[Sergeant Rock]

And I'm going to veer into 'popular' music territory to mention the rather folk-ish singer Patty Griffin, because goddamn it, that woman is devastating on a regular basis.

As is, in the same vein, Emmylou Harris (her reaction to the death of Graham Parsons, "Boulder to Birmingham", is my choice for saddest music ever). Put Patty and Emmylou together and magic happens. The combination of music and lyrics in "Little Fire" is, indeed, devastating.

All that I want is one who knows me
A kind hand on my face when I weep
And I'd give back these things I know are meaningless
For a little fire beside me when I sleep

http://www.youtube.com/v/6ewyXS3ZwEc


Sarge

[Madiel]

Yes, I'm aware of the multiple collaborations of those 2 ladies. My father is something of an Emmylou Harris fan, although we've not really swapped respective collections.

I could happily trade Patty Griffin clips with you all day, Sarge (EDIT: Or even Patty Griffin lyrics), but I fear the natives might get restless. 

[Ken B]

Anything serial, actually performed.

Maybe I'm using sad a bit differently from some of you ...



The swan's song from Swan Lake.