Greatest composer of the 20th century?

[San Antone]

Mahler's creative life occurred mostly in the 20th century: Symphonies 4-10, Das Lied von der Erde, Rückert-Lieder, Kindertotenlieder. He music fits the 20th century even more than the 19th stylistically (he had profound influence on the Second Viennese boys, Shostakovich, etc). It took a half century after his death for his music to finally be accepted by the mass of classical listeners but now fits your third criterion of greatness: his "music is performed often and of works from all periods of his life."

I agree with you (in GMG's ongoing debate whether Beethoven is Romantic or Classical) but that's not the point. James' poll is based on a century, a time period, not on style. Mahler lived in the 20th century. Most of his music was composed in the 20th century. He deserves consideration as one of the great 20th century composers.

Sarge

You are correct that Mahler's symphonies were all written between the 1880s and the first decade of the 20th c.  And you are also correct that Schoenberg was influenced by Mahler, and I will even go so far as to say in the sketches of the tenth there are intimations of a more atonal style.  But his overall style I think has no influence as to where the 20th century ended up going: neo-classical to serialism to minimalism and beyond.  He would appear to be somewhat irrelevant for the majority of the century.

For you, as for me, the Other vote seems the way to go.

[Cato]

The change from Renaissance to Baroque was indeed far from instantaneous, starting really with the Council of Trent (1545-1563), and the Counter-Reformation.
Seems a bit arbitrary. Why not cut off at 1945 instead of 1989? Have the conflicts of the kind that were frequent during Cold War really stopped? USA no more in war on foreign, non-European/Russian soil, Russia no longer fighting for influence in East Europe or Middle East? All are content in the Far East?

The idea was that World Wars I and II were a new kind of 30 Years' War, and that the "Cold War" was a result of it.  At the time he spoke, Fukuyama had offered the "end of history" debate, and so Communism seemed a moot point with the exceptions of North Korea and Cuba.  China of course is still partially Communist and not a bastion of freedom, and the rise of Islamo-Fascist Terrorism was not seen.

Mahler's creative life occurred mostly in the 20th century: Symphonies 4-10, Das Lied von der Erde, Rückert-Lieder, Kindertotenlieder. His music fits the 20th century even more than the 19th stylistically (he had profound influence on the Second Viennese boys, Shostakovich, etc). It took a half century after his death for his music to finally be accepted by the mass of classical listeners but now fits your third criterion of greatness: his "music is performed often and of works from all periods of his life."
.... Mahler lived in the 20th century. Most of his music was composed in the 20th century. He deserves consideration as one of the great 20th century composers.

Sarge

Amen to that!  e.g. The Ninth and Tenth Symphonies show at times a path not dissimilar from that of his acolyte Schoenberg.

[San Antone]

There is some merit in considering the 19th century extending unto the end of WWI, and then then a period of adjustment until after WWII when the 20th century finally established itself.  We are probably still in the 20th century, intellectually.

[Sergeant Rock]

There is some merit in considering the 19th century extending unto the end of WWI, and then then a period of adjustment until after WWII when the 20th century finally established itself.  We are probably still in the 20th century, intellectually.

Or, conversely, there is some merit in considering the 20th century to have started in the late 19th, with Debussy and Mahler leading the charge into the modern period 

Sarge

[Florestan]

We are probably still in the 20th century, intellectually.

And fastly running towards the Stone Age. 

[Karl Henning]

Or, conversely, there is some merit in considering the 20th century to have started in the late 19th, with Debussy and Mahler leading the charge into the modern period 

Sarge

An idea with some sound reasoning.

It isn't as if we need to coddle James in his mental tic that every 20^th-c. composer before Stockwheezin is supposedly "tragically compromised by prior Romanticism."

[Sergeant Rock]

But his overall style I think has no influence as to where the 20th century ended up going: neo-classical to serialism to minimalism and beyond.  He would appear to be somewhat irrelevant for the majority of the century.

By influencing and supporting Schoenberg and sons in their march to atonality, Mahler influenced every subsequent composer who followed that style. But the 20th century went to more places than the three styles you mention   Mahler also influenced Shostakovich, Britten, Schmidt, Kurt Weill, Berio, Bernstein, Barber, Pettersson, Havergal Brian, Malcolm Arnold, to name the most obvious.

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

So what metric should be used to measure greatness?

I offer these:

Lifetime falls squarely within the 20th century
Influence is significant and demonstrative
Music is performed often and of works from all periods of his life

I may (or may not) have said at the time how reasonable I find these metrics.

My observation today is simply, that the composer(s) who may fulfill the criteria as The Century's Greatest by these yardsticks, would not necessarily be the neurotic "progressive"-minded composer(s) the OP has in view.

For instance, I find Sarge's point, that Mahler has been a profound influence on many composers after, entirely valid . . . and it hardly matters whether the influence is taken in ways of "moving music forward" or finding new musical means within the manner of the musical past.

[Karl Henning]

Well, we might emend to Creative life falls squarely into the century.

[San Antone]

By influencing and supporting Schoenberg and sons in their march to atonality, Mahler influenced every subsequent composer who followed that style. But the 20th century went to more places than the three styles you mention   Mahler also influenced Shostakovich, Britten, Schmidt, Kurt Weill, Berio, Bernstein, Barber, Pettersson, Havergal Brian, Malcolm Arnold, to name the most obvious.

Sarge

While I take your point, especially as it pertains to orchestral music, I will always hear Mahler as representing the late 19th century, fin de siècle, and not of the 20th century.  To the extent composers exemplify Mahler, I hear them as throw backs and not as contributing to the 20th c. as much as others who made a obvious distinction between their style and Mahler's.

Someone posted earlier about an idea of a "long 19th c." stretching from the French Revolution through WWI (1789-1917) and I find that idea meaningful, especially as it pertains to this discussion.  This would account for Beethoven and Mahler both being more at home in the 19th c.  And I hear more similarity between those two composers than between Mahler and most composers from the 2nd half of the 20th c.

[Sergeant Rock]

For you, as for me, the Other vote seems the way to go.

Other, along with Banana, is almost always the correct answer 

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

You rang?

[San Antone]

Of course, one aspect of post-modernism is the idea of quoting previous styles, and there are 20th c. composers who purposely channel Mahler - Rochberg for example.  I am not sure if this is evidence of Mahler's influence as much as an aspect of the 20th c. generally.

[Cato]

Someone posted earlier about an idea of a "long 19th c." stretching from the French Revolution through WWI (1789-1917) and I find that idea meaningful, especially as it pertains to this discussion.  This would account for Beethoven and Mahler both being more at home in the 19th c.  And I hear more similarity between those two composers than between Mahler and most composers from the 2nd half of the 20th c.

And yet, I can also hear the future: e.g. the Seventh Symphony of Mahler has sections which are almost Webernian.  Boulez in his recording brought that aspect out!     If the past is dominant, the future is still not silent by any means.

[Sergeant Rock]

To the extent composers exemplify Mahler, I hear them as throw backs and not as contributing to the 20th c. as much as others who made a obvious distinction between their style and Mahler's.

None of the composers I mentioned (excepting perhaps Schmidt) could have existed in the 19th century. They would have been laughed off the stage. (Mahler was rarely accepted by audiences and critics until well into the 20th century.) I do not think Britten and Shostakovich (or the others) are throw backs but a vital part of 20th Century music. Just because most remained tonal does not make them irrelevant.

Sarge

[San Antone]

None of the composers I mentioned (excepting perhaps Schmidt) could have existed in the 19th century. They would have been laughed off the stage. (Mahler was rarely accepted by audiences and critics until well into the 20th century.) I do not think Britten and Shostakovich (or the others) are throw backs but a vital part of 20th Century music. Just because most remained tonal does not make them irrelevant.

Sarge

It appears we will have to agree to disagree on the relative importance of Mahler's contribution to the many-faceted and in many ways unique nature of the 20th c. and which composers represent what the 20th c., esp. the later half, is really about historically as opposed to some aspects of the style of some composers.

[Sergeant Rock]

It appears we will have to agree to disagree

Agree    My original post was actually meant as something of a joke. I was wavering between choosing Arnie or Igor when I suddenly veered into Mahler territory because why not? But due to our conversation, I'm beginning to believe my own arguments Thank you for taking the time to talk.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Still though, a transitional figure .. but mostly of the 19th century variety and its trailing off.

Give me a second to reply, James. I want to consult the James Bingo card...

...ah, yes, here's my answer:


Pffft!!!


Sarge

[San Antone]

Interesting about Mahler (again, a throwback to the 19th century, very Wagner/Bruckner influenced, and clearly a Romantic and the trailing off of that) .. curiously his music was largely ignored and treated with a great deal of suspicion during his time, he was more known during his life as a conductor too (mostly of others). It took many decades of proselytizing by conductors such as Bruno Walter, Wilhelm Mengelberg and, later, Leonard Bernstein before the symphonies finally caught on after WWII. Still though, a transitional figure .. but mostly of the 19th century variety and its trailing off.

Hah! - something we can agree on.   Although, despite some glaring differences, we agree on plenty.  Not that it matters.

[San Antone]

Agree    My original post was actually meant as something of a joke. I was wavering between choosing Arnie or Igor when I suddenly veered into Mahler territory because why not? But due to our conversation, I'm beginning to believe my own arguments Thank you for taking the time to talk.

Sarge

Happy to be of service.    I suspected you were not entirely serious but went with it since I find this kind of topic interesting to think about.  Influence is a mysterious thing and the 20th c. was a time when so many different things were being done, including looking backward for inspiration.