GMG Listening Group - Schubert's String Quintet in C major - June 22-28, 2011

[Brahmsian]

I don't want to hijack this thread with George Louis Onslow but it's interesting and informative to compare a most probable influence on Schubert. His string quintet, composed in 1829, is called the "Bullet".

The one CD I have of Onslow includes his 'Bullet' Quintet.  Fantastic piece!

[DavidW]

That is some great music ZB!

We do have a couple of threads, for Onslow:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=13552.0
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,652.0.html

And I hear that he is always welcome on Gurn's corner.

[Palmetto]

For me, especially in the inner movements, I feel some of Schubert's inner struggles, his unhappiness, sickness (perhaps).  The Andante Sustenuto Trio portion of the Scherzo almost never fails to make my eyes well up, and my heart feel like it is moving up into my throat.

Of course, this is just how the music makes me react and feel.

"Do you think you would experience those same feelings if you knew nothing about Schubert except this piece?", asked the guy who knows nothing about Schubert except this piece.

[Gurn Blanston]

"Do you think you would experience those same feelings if you knew nothing about Schubert except this piece?", asked the guy who knows nothing about Schubert except this piece.

I think this is an interesting and very germane question. I can't really answer it myself except from distant memory, because you can't un-ring a bell, and as it happens I know a lot about Schubert. But I do remember back to a day when I didn't, and I responded very strongly to this work from the very first. There is passion there, and whether you know the reasons for it or not, you can sense it anyway. IMO.   

[karlhenning]

. . . because you can't un-ring a bell . . . .

Although reversing the sound of a bell ringing is cool.

[DavidW]

"Do you think you would experience those same feelings if you knew nothing about Schubert except this piece?", asked the guy who knows nothing about Schubert except this piece.

The first Schubert piece I heard was the 8th symphony used in a movie, and I immediately felt that was in immensely passionate work without knowing about Schubert.

I bet if it was this quintet instead, I would still feel that way.

[karlhenning]

The first Schubert piece I heard was the 8th symphony used in a movie . . .

Probably not the movie you mean, but it's used to charming effect near the beginning of Minority Report, IIRC.

It's just possible that I played the first movement in band transcription before I ever heard the symphony itself . . . .

[Brahmsian]

"Do you think you would experience those same feelings if you knew nothing about Schubert except this piece?", asked the guy who knows nothing about Schubert except this piece.

To be honest Palmetto, I think I would still experience these strong emotions and feelings, regardless of what I knew or didn't know about Schubert.

When I'm caught up in this piece, I'm actually not thinking at all about Schubert's struggles and impending death at all.  I'm not thinking of Schubert, period.  The music just simply moves me deeply, and sweeps me away.

[karlhenning]

To be honest Palmetto, I think I would still experience these strong emotions and feelings, regardless of what I knew or didn't know about Schubert.

When I'm caught up in this piece, I'm actually not thinking at all about Schubert's struggles and impending death at all.  I'm not thinking of Schubert, period.  The music just simply moves me deeply, and sweeps me away.

Likewise. (In principle, I mean . . . I don't think I know this quintet . . . .)

[Brahmsian]

Likewise. (In principle, I mean . . . I don't think I know this quintet . . . .)

Umm, duty calls you Karl!   

[DavidW]

Probably not the movie you mean, but it's used to charming effect near the beginning of Minority Report, IIRC.

It's just possible that I played the first movement in band transcription before I ever heard the symphony itself . . . .

For me it was Double Indemnity.

[DavidW]

ZB, Ray, Jo have all commented on the rich sound from adding a second cello that had use in the melody in not simply following the bass.  Following up on this...

I've also read in two different places that the scherzo imitates the effects of horn calls in places.  Does anybody hear this?  How is it done?  Even better could you post a clip, where you can hear it?

So... does this string quintet sound symphonic?  And do you think that might be part of what makes it so popular?  Well except on the station that Ray always called up!

[jochanaan]

...I've also read in two different places that the scherzo imitates the effects of horn calls in places.  Does anybody hear this?  How is it done?  Even better could you post a clip, where you can hear it?

I don't have clips, but the "horn call" effects are right at the beginning of the movement, where the music moves from full chords on the tonic, C to open fifths on the dominant, G, and back (known as "horn fifths" among composers and theorists because that's the way valveless horns had to play).

So... does this string quintet sound symphonic?  And do you think that might be part of what makes it so popular?  Well except on the station that Ray always called up!

I'm not sure I'd call its lushness "symphonic," but the rich sounds certainly are a factor in its popularity.

[DavidW]

I don't have clips, but the "horn call" effects are right at the beginning of the movement, where the music moves from full chords on the tonic, C to open fifths on the dominant, G, and back (known as "horn fifths" among composers and theorists because that's the way valveless horns had to play).I'm not sure I'd call its lushness "symphonic," but the rich sounds certainly are a factor in its popularity.

Oh yeah I hear it!  When you point it out like that.  Here I'll post the first 20 seconds, in case anyone misplaced their recording.

It's that ba-bum thing right?

D956_Scherzo.mp3

[zamyrabyrd]

The greatness of Schubert is a paradox. His musical material is frequently simple, though deceptively so, even childlike. The second subject of the 1st movement is a case in point, like a fragments of a hummed tune. There are so many examples in his output, like his Gb Impromptu. How could such simple constructions be so moving? Analysts have surely scratched their heads over this one and gotten nowhere.

Is it the scoring or the modulations or both? The first violin in the Adagio (ta, ta, TA, ta; ta, ta-ta,TA ta) also fragments over a disparate melody - how do these shards combine and make magic? In the hands of lesser mortals they don't click. In Schubert's hands, these simple constructions become great as some of Mozart's childlike themes. Humility in action, perhaps? But that doesn't answer it either. The whole is much more than the sum of its parts.

It's the same language whether spoken by a hawker of goods or a Shakespeare. How different when simple words are put together by a poet like Robert Burns. Can anyone really get into its inner logic and figure out precisely HOW such naive statements become poetry? Likewise Schubert...

O, my luve's like a red, red rose, That's newly sprung in June.
O, my luve's like the melodie, That's sweetly play'd in tune.

ZB

[zamyrabyrd]

Well looks like everyone but Gurn (who has a wider view of things ) hears romanticism... cool. 

Hey I'm not really familiar with Schubert's biography but apparently he wrote this in 1828 just a couple of months died.  Was he already gravely ill at the time?  What was his life like back then in those final months?  It's sad that the quintet was passed over publication because his reputation was almost solely made on lieder.  If anyone can fill in the gaps on what things were like for Franz back in summer of 1828 that would be cool.

And this brings me to another question: well is your reception, or interpretation of a work influenced by biographical details of the composer?  And in particular, do you hear any part of Schubert's life in this string quintet?  Or is it abstract music to you?  Or do you hear your own life in this music?

For me, it is in abstract work.  But I always feel like there is a touch of tragedy in Schubert's late works, including this one.

The final three great piano sonatas belong to this period, as well as the song cycle Winterreise and the last string quartet. I mention these as sharing the same spirit of gloom and desperation with what I feel is a kind of Mahlerian irony - the alleged "cheerful" parts. I had the chance to get to know the string quartet No. 15 (1826) as part of a project. The alteration of major and minor is as chilling as anything in the Winter Journey. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8q-5o383kI&feature=related

The "Death and the Maiden" (1824) quartet probably came upon the heels of the realization of his contracting a terminal illness for which the treatment was as bad or even worse than the disease. How he could compose with horrible headaches, vomiting, etc., brought about by the injection of mercury is a mystery. Even healthy people would strain to have such stamina to write so much.

ZB

[jochanaan]

Oh yeah I hear it!  When you point it out like that.  Here I'll post the first 20 seconds, in case anyone misplaced their recording.

It's that ba-bum thing right?

D956_Scherzo.mp3

Yes, that's it. 

[jochanaan]

The greatness of Schubert is a paradox. His musical material is frequently simple, though deceptively so, even childlike...

Yes, indeed.  And it's true of so many great composers.  Beethoven is another example; despite the complexity and grandeur of his musical structures, his melodies have that same deceptive simplicity.  And Varèse; so many of his "extreme" compositions are built from the simplest brief figures... One of the mysteries of music that defies analysis.

[Luke]

Likewise. (In principle, I mean . . . I don't think I know this quintet . . . .)

Can this really be true?   

[Brian]

Yes, indeed.  And it's true of so many great composers.  Beethoven is another example; despite the complexity and grandeur of his musical structures, his melodies have that same deceptive simplicity.  And Varèse; so many of his "extreme" compositions are built from the simplest brief figures... One of the mysteries of music that defies analysis.

Or the nose-thumbing simplicity of the tunes in Mozart 41.iv!