The Classical Style

[Gurn Blanston]

Any numbers to back up this claim?

As a claim, it's too generic for evidence.

There were a lot of Italian composers in that period (I'm going to arbitrarily call it 1740-1765, can we agree on that?).

Two of the most important composers from the period were Sammartini (the kernel of the symphony but only for strings) and Jomelli (orchestral dynamics). Jomelli was from Naples (IIRC), but he worked and developed his theories in Mannheim. On the German front, there was Johann Stamitz (added the minuet to make a 4 movement work, big influence on Haydn, developer of the Mannheim Orchestra &c) and Beck. Among the requirements for later style that were developed here were use of winds to supplement the strings, perfecting modulation to a different key, and the beginnings of irregularity in phrase length that led to rhythmic speed and muscularity.

So although the early sinfonia did indeed get its beginnings in Italy and from Italians working abroad, the modern symphony as we know it was more a product of southern Germany (as we call it now), Vienna and Bohemia. At least that's what the literature says to me. And I don't for a second discount the contribution of the Italians either. They made the ball, but the Germans took it and ran off.

[quintett op.57]

Haydn starts with crap and in his good pieces develops it into something good.

He's a genius anyway

[DavidW]

So although the early sinfonia did indeed get its beginnings in Italy and from Italians working abroad, the modern symphony as we know it was more a product of southern Germany (as we call it now), Vienna and Bohemia. At least that's what the literature says to me. And I don't for a second discount the contribution of the Italians either. They made the ball, but the Germans took it and ran off.

Besides the Italians appear dominant when you look at the sinfonia and the opera, but there are other areas to consider.  For instance some of the greatest fortepiano builders where in Austria, Germany and England.  So even though an Italian invented it, I would not be surprised if the evolution of keyboard music drew alot from the places in those non-Italian countries where they were building fortepianos.  What do you think?

[Haffner]

I think we were about hail Mozart as supreme composer.

My favorite!

[DavidW]

I was listening to a program on Clementi on BBC Radio 3.  They were saying something about how he encorporated alot of varying styles from different countries in his harpsichord music.  I might have that completely wrong though, because I was mostly just background listening while I worked.  So can anyone say more about Clementi's impact on music and what his style was like? 

I caught something else about how the interchange of styles from different countries was extremely restricted during and after the Napoleonic War because it made travel hard.  So if you look at music from England, Germany, Italy, France etc during that time do you start to see them begin to develop in different ways that are no longer as tightly interconnected with each other, and more culturally isolated?

[Ten thumbs]

Unfortunately, I do not have Newman's book on the Classical sonata to hand now but I do recall he mentions a large number of early Italians, most of whom I have never heard of elsewhere. I have mentioned Platti to which I can add Tartini and Rutini. Also rather well known is Alberti and his bass, and of course D. Scarlatti was actually of Italian origin. If you want more, Newman's book is very interesting.

[12tone.]

Now this is from Rosen.

2. E.T.A. Hoffman thought of Mozart and Haydn as the first Romantic composers.  Do you agree with this view or disagree?  Why?

If they're romantic then Bach is classical.  We know that is TEH WRNOG!

[The Ninth]

and of course D. Scarlatti was actually of Italian origin.

I don't have any pieces by Scarlatti, but something from a Wikipedia article caught my eye:

Other distinctive attributes of Scarlatti's style are the following:

    * The clear influence of Iberian (Portuguese and Spanish) folk music. Scarlatti's use of the Phrygian mode and other tonal inflections more or less alien to European art music is an obvious symptom of this, as is his use of extremely dissonant cluster chords and other techniques which seem to imitate the guitar. The full-bodied, sometimes tragic use of folk idioms is highly unusual.

This sounds really interesting, but I don't know how accurate it is (Wikipedia sometimes being unreliable). Anyone with more knowledge care to comment?

[bwv 1080]

I don't have any pieces by Scarlatti, but something from a Wikipedia article caught my eye:

This sounds really interesting, but I don't know how accurate it is (Wikipedia sometimes being unreliable). Anyone with more knowledge care to comment?

Guitar idioms are prevalent in Scarlatti's music (which is my much of it transcribes so well).  Check out this video of K492 with its imitation of rasgueados:

http://www.youtube.com/v/70tP-m4Zv10

[The Ninth]

I like that. I think I'll try to pick up some Scarlatti pieces soon. Any recommendations for particular works or performers?

[bwv 1080]

I like that. I think I'll try to pick up some Scarlatti pieces soon. Any recommendations for particular works or performers?

My favorite disc, a Capriccio recording with Ton Koopman on harpsichord is out of print.  Scott Ross is highly regarded on harpsichord.  If you want piano, the Naxos discs are not a bad place to start.

[Fëanor]

Now this is from Rosen.

2. E.T.A. Hoffman thought of Mozart and Haydn as the first Romantic composers.  Do you agree with this view or disagree?  Why?  In their purity of style they certainly stood out but I'm at a complete loss as to what he was thinking or meant by that
...
I have more questions, but I want to see if we can have some fun with these, or others proposed by other posters.

Well, David,

For starters I'm no musicoligist, heck, I only listen to music.  E.T.A. Hoffman?  Have I heard the name?

For me, (yes, that "me"), Mozart and Haydn are by no means Romantics.  Certainly they were capable of articulating emotion, but how much further did they really go than J.S. Bach?  How about J.S.' cantatas?

Again for me, the Romantic era is really about the shameless exploitation of emotion and sentimentality, an often self-indulgent wallowing in these feelings.  I'm definitely not a Romantic era fan, although some romantics like, maybe, Berlioz, are fun, and some like say, Dvorak, just don't get too carried way.  But Schumann for example, it's puke, retch as far as I'm concerned.

[Ten thumbs]

Be careful of wallowing in old books. Mozart was also at one time a Rococo composer!
Mozart always seems to ne so delightfully spontaneous, whereas Schumann is much more rigorous.

[quintett op.57]

Again for me, the Romantic era is really about the shameless exploitation of emotion and sentimentality, an often self-indulgent wallowing in these feelings.  I'm definitely not a Romantic era fan, although some romantics like, maybe, Berlioz, are fun, and some like say, Dvorak, just don't get too carried way.  But Schumann for example, it's puke, retch as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks for the caricature.

[Florestan]

Again for me, the Romantic era is really about the shameless exploitation of emotion and sentimentality, an often self-indulgent wallowing in these feelings.  I'm definitely not a Romantic era fan, although some romantics like, maybe, Berlioz, are fun, and some like say, Dvorak, just don't get too carried way.  But Schumann for example, it's puke, retch as far as I'm concerned.

Thank you for this very illuminating and mind-opening post. I've always considered Romanticism in general - and Schumann's music in particular - as one of the greatest achievements of the human spirit, but now I've seen the light and I repent my sins. Once again, thank you!

[Montpellier]

I'd say that any act of creativity where an audience of some kind is exposed to the work is self-indulgent wallowing.   Quite aside from the fact you often hear a defence of composers and artists along the lines of "Do it for yourself, not an audience." 

.

[Kullervo]

Well, David,

For starters I'm no musicoligist, heck, I only listen to music.  E.T.A. Hoffman?  Have I heard the name?

For me, (yes, that "me"), Mozart and Haydn are by no means Romantics.  Certainly they were capable of articulating emotion, but how much further did they really go than J.S. Bach?  How about J.S.' cantatas?

Again for me, the Romantic era is really about the shameless exploitation of emotion and sentimentality, an often self-indulgent wallowing in these feelings.  I'm definitely not a Romantic era fan, although some romantics like, maybe, Berlioz, are fun, and some like say, Dvorak, just don't get too carried way.  But Schumann for example, it's puke, retch as far as I'm concerned.

[locrian]

Yes, me with the rolling of the eyes as well.

[Fëanor]

Thank you for this very illuminating and mind-opening post. I've always considered Romanticism in general - and Schumann's music in particular - as one of the greatest achievements of the human spirit, but now I've seen the light and I repent my sins. Once again, thank you!

You like broccoli, I like spinach -- don't take it so personally.

"Puke, retch":  so sorry, a bit of hyperbole on my part.  Then again, "... as one of the greatest achievements of the human spirit" at applied to Schumann's music sounds a bit hyperbolic to me. 

Viva the 2nd Viennese School.  Viva Elliot Carter.  Viva Iannis Xenakis.  Viva Karlheinz Stockhausen.

[Ten thumbs]

You like broccoli, I like spinach -- don't take it so personally.

Viva the 2nd Viennese School.  Viva Elliot Carter.  Viva Iannis Xenakis.  Viva Karlheinz Stockhausen.

Yet Schumann in very parsimonious with his notes - every one is made to work. You obviously aren't a Scriabin fan, with his 'paper music' and 'mathematical formulae'.

When I think 'Classical Style', I think of Palladio.