Cato's Grammar Grumble

[Karl Henning]

Isn't that the response to "Tag!"...?

[Kontrapunctus]

Although the Oxford comma relates more directly to punctuation per se, this is quite amusing!

[Lethevich]

Question: iirc a lot of diacritic-heavy languages don't use the mark if it's on an upper-case letter. But do any English style guides have such a rule?

For example, the French I think would write "Quatuor Ebène", but if I were to follow my usual method of translating the framework into English but retaining the colour word untranslated (so becoming Ebène Quartet), as it's now an English context, should it become "Ébène Quartet"?

[kishnevi]

Completely unrelated to Sara's query, but it's been bugging me for the last few days, ever since I gave a first listen to Elgar's other choral works (meaning the non Gerontius stuff):

Dear Sir Edward:
Can you please refrain from treating the verb past tense suffix ("-ed") as a separate syllable.  To the best of my knowledge, on both sides of the Atlantic, "multiplied" is pronounced with three syllables, not four.  And that's not the only time you did it, but when you do it in the opening line of an oratorio it tends to linger longer in the memory.  It seriously detracted from my enjoyment of the music.  Please refrain from further offenses in this area.  I know Handel did it, but that is not a good precedent, since he was born in a country where they did not speak English as ihre Muttersprache.

Respectfully yours

Jeffrey Smith

[eyeresist]

More specific examples, please, Jeffrey. You are very learnd.

[kishnevi]

More specific examples, please, Jeffrey. You are very learnd.

Good on point example.

Learned as an adjective (which is how you used it) is pronounced with two syllables.

Learned as the past tense of the verb "to learn" is pronounced with one syllable.

The Elgar uses involved past tenses of verbs, not adjectives.

ETA: Oh, and that's pronounced with two syllables, not three, and involved with two syllables, not three.

[The Six]

Alright, "Farmers Market" or "Farmers' Market," which is it? Surely it's not "Farmer's Market!"

[Opus106]

Alright, "Farmers Market" or "Farmers' Market," which is it? Surely it's not "Farmer's Market!"

Or worse -- it could be Farmers's Market!

[Opus106]

Someone really likes their commas at Vanity Fair.

The royal family of Qatar, does not comment on its purchases, however. And the tight circle of auction, houses, officials and dealers it is involved with, by and large, sign confidentiality agreements. But multiple sources confirm the record purchase of The Card Players.

[Source]

[Cato]

Alright, "Farmers Market" or "Farmers' Market," which is it? Surely it's not "Farmer's Market!"

Oy!   

You are quite right: "Farmer's" would be wrong, unless somehow Mr. Farmer had opened a market!

I have seen both the plural possessive "Farmers' Market" and Farmers Market.  I like the former, but one could make a case for the latter.

[Ten thumbs]

Oy!   

You are quite right: "Farmer's" would be wrong, unless somehow Mr. Farmer had opened a market!

I have seen both the plural possessive "Farmers' Market" and Farmers Market.  I like the former, but one could make a case for the latter.

Plural adjectival nouns are only valid if there's cause for confusion, as in Plastics industry, for example. I'm not sure what confusion farmers might cause, unless they're going to release a bull. On the other hand, no one would say Farmer Market, but Farm Market would mean much the same.

[Karl Henning]

Normally, I'd not bat an eye at such a gaffe on Facebook . . . only it is an event to be held at NEC:

Spanning the breath of human experience . . . .

[PaulSC]

That would be bad breath, probably.

[PaulSC]

How did the phrase "compare and contrast" become ubiquitous in contexts like exam instructions? It seems to me that "compare" by itself is already an invitation to describe differences as well as similarities. But now I don't dare formulate a question using only "compare," because students will protest that they weren't instructed to "contrast."

[Karl Henning]

Newspapers have enough pressures as it is, I am happy to spare the rod . . . still, worth observing:

. . . but the victory was a hollow one, since neither Rick Santorum nor Newt Gingrich were on the ballot.

Neither Santorum nor Gingrich was on the ballot in The Old Dominion, to be sure.

[kishnevi]

How did the phrase "compare and contrast" become ubiquitous in contexts like exam instructions? It seems to me that "compare" by itself is already an invitation to describe differences as well as similarities. But now I don't dare formulate a question using only "compare," because students will protest that they weren't instructed to "contrast."

Here's where shades of meaning become important.
"Compare" often carries with it the implication that the person comparing A and B is looking for similarities first, and differences are secondary.  "Contrast" carries the implication, obviously, that the differences take priority over similarities.  So while a formal definition would say :"compare and contrast" contains a redundancy, the usual implications of the words make the redundancy only formal, not real.

"Compare and contrast", by the way, was in universal when I was in school thirty years and more ago.  It may simply have become one of those lingual fossils that are carried on because they always have been.

[eyeresist]

com·pare  (km-pâr)
v.tr.
1. To consider or describe as similar, equal, or analogous; liken.
2. To examine in order to note the similarities or differences of.
3. Grammar To form the positive, comparative, or superlative degree of (an adjective or adverb).
v.intr.
1. To be worthy of comparison; bear comparison: two concert halls that just do not compare.
2. To draw comparisons.

The above entry goes on to note that the word derives from the Latin for "equal".

Anyway, "compare and contrast" has a nicely poetic alliteration and rhythm - these things are important!

[PaulSC]

All good points. I appreciate the graceful alliteration of the phrase and am happy to use it in some contexts. But it becomes more cumbersome in a situation like the following: "Describe Berio's use of quotation in the third movement of his Sinfonia, and compare his methods and results with those of Bernd Alois Zimmermann in a work such as Dialogues."

Perhaps I shouldn't grumble...

[eyeresist]

"Describe Berio's use of quotation in the third movement of his Sinfonia, and compare his methods and results with those of Bernd Alois Zimmermann in a work such as Dialogues."

This reminds me of why I dropped out...

[Karl Henning]

Here's a mild curiosity:

We will confirm your appointment request with in the next 24 business hours.