Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)

[jlaurson]

Wagner's statement is the epitome of lunacy, and Mahler's statement is simply untrue. Who in the world was Mahler? what did he already compose? Long extended rubbery interludes full of strident outbursts. I can think of a 100 composers that came after Wagner who were better then him, and I can think of a handful of composers who were greater then Beethoven. So Mahler's comments are simply wrong.

As for Wagner. If the value and meaning of God is so insignificant and low that he would dare to equate Him to mortal human beings, then we simply don't have the same definition of what God is. I think Wagner has no clue as to what God is.

As for Wagner's music: Pompous nationalistic strident whips that lash out at the listener, void of inspiration and grace.

As for Beethoven, yes he was a great composer, but Greatest he wasn't. Once, I used to believe that Mendelssohn was the Greatest composer of all time. Now, I know he wasn't, I just liked his music, that's all. There is no 'greatest' in music. This is not some chess competition where one is 'better' then the other one by beating him. Music is an expression of life, and to suggest that this expression and gift belonged only to a select few, is rather a shallow and elitist characterization of a beloved form of art.

Yawn. How tediously faux-outrageous.

[28Orot]

Yawn. How tediously faux-outrageous.

Ok whatever...

[Mirror Image]

I see Saul's up to his old tricks again. (Serious yawn right about now)

[Madiel]

This is an orchestration of op 111/ii apparently made by Beethoven

http://unheardbeethoven.org/mp3s/Beeth_op111_II_orch.mp3

The same website has his orchestrations of op 109-111. I think it's interesting, revealing in fact. It's like there's suddenly a connection between op 111/ii and the Pastoral Symphony which to me was a real surprise.

The website does not say the orchestrations were made by Beethoven. It says they were made by a bloke called Gerd Prengel.

[28Orot]

I see Saul's up to his old tricks again. (Serious yawn right about now)

You have a counterargument please present it here, but to describe what I said as 'old tricks' makes no sense.
Yes I exaggerated a little to make a point, but I strongly believe that those two statements by Wagner and Mahler are totally wrong.

[Mirror Image]

You have a counterargument please present it here, but to describe what I said as 'old tricks' makes no sense. Yes I exaggerated a little to make a point, but I strongly believe that those two statements by Wagner and Mahler are totally wrong.

They're only wrong because you don't like either composer and have an axe to grind. If you don't like Mahler or Wagner, that's okay, but to claim they're wrong for sharing a statement you don't agree with doesn't make them wrong, it makes them look like anyone else with an opinion and whether you want to admit it or not, both of these masters have carved out a piece for themselves in music history.

[28Orot]

They're only wrong because you don't like either composer and have an axe to grind. If you don't like Mahler or Wagner, that's okay, but to claim they're wrong for sharing a statement you don't agree with doesn't make them wrong, it makes them look like anyone else with an opinion and whether you want to admit it or not, both of these masters have carved out a piece for themselves in music history.

I would have said the same thing if Mendelssohn had said it, and he is my favorite composer. Anyone who throws out such ridiculous limitations as those statements saying only 'he' and there is 'non other' is a wrong statement, period. But you can disagree, thats ok.

[Mirror Image]

I would have said the same thing if Mendelssohn had said it, and he is my favorite composer. Anyone who throws out such ridiculous limitations as those statements saying only 'he' and there is 'non other' is a wrong statement, period. But you can disagree, thats ok.

Okay, we'll agree to disagree, but the empty rhetoric about both Mahler's and Wagner's music was absolutely uncalled for and has no place in this thread. Like I said, you had an axe to grind and I personally don't appreciate your 'outburst.'

[28Orot]

Okay, we'll agree to disagree, but the empty rhetoric about both Mahler's and Wagner's music was absolutely uncalled for and has no place in this thread. Like I said, you had an axe to grind and I personally don't appreciate your 'outburst.'

I can say whatever I want about anyone's music, pull yourself together, this is an open forum. You don't like something, move on.

[Mirror Image]

I can say whatever I want about anyone's music, pull yourself together, this is an open forum. You don't like something, move on.

There's no questioning that you can't say what you want, where you want, but there are such things as being tactful, and respectful, of a composer whose thread you've hijacked with your ignorant comments. Perhaps you should pull yourself together and keep your comments about Mahler and Wagner to yourself. All you're doing is alienating yourself from folks who do like their music and, more importantly, like Beethoven's music enough to not feel the incessant need to mouth off about composers he/she doesn't care for.

[28Orot]

There's no questioning that you can't say what you want, where you want, but there are such things as being tactful, and respectful, of a composer whose thread you've hijacked with your ignorant comments. Perhaps you should pull yourself together and keep your comments about Mahler and Wagner to yourself. All you're doing is alienating yourself from folks who do like their music and, more importantly, like Beethoven's music enough to not feel the incessant need to mouth off about composers he/she doesn't care for.

Respect?

I owe respect to Wagner or Mahler?

And I hijacked the thread because I criticized the opening statements of those two composers?
Last I checked, I can have my say about the topic. And I have said it, and I'm not sorry at the least that you dislike my comments. I don't go around measuring my words so that I would be loved by all. I say my true feelings about a given topic or a statement knowing full well that some may not like it. But to make my comments populist? you can forget about that.

[Mirror Image]

Look, Saul, it's clear you're not understanding anything I'm saying. Back on ignore you go...

[28Orot]

Look, Saul, it's clear you're not understanding anything I'm saying. Back on ignore you go...

You have a great dislike for those who don't confirm to your line of thinking. Would be nice to grow out of this, its a great limitation trust me to dislike and not tolerate alternative point of view and different lines of thinking. But if you only want to hear whatever/whoever you agree with, then by all means hit that ignore button. You'll be doing a disservice to yourself not me.

Mahler and Wagner only human beings making grandiose and uncalled for pathetic statements that have no base in reality. Comparing mortals to God, and cutting out anyone who was before Beethoven and after Wagner. Two very untrue and ridiculous statements and it was a great opportunity for me to come here and expose their stupidity. Composers are not saints, and they are not geniuses in every field.

[PaulR]

Not that I should give any credibility to Saul's argument (or Wagner, in general), but to read that as saying Beethoven is equal to god is the delusion, especially without the context in which Wagner probably meant it in.  Yes, the statement is a bit hyperbolic, but after the Ninth Symphony, there was a feeling among the more Romantically inclined composers that the Symphony (as they knew it) reached the climax after the Ninth and nothing could really come after it in the same fashion. (and Wagner, more or less, called symphonic music dead).  Berlioz's reaction to the Ninth was to add the Program to the Symphony in Symphony Fantastique, and Wagner tried to do to opera what Beethoven did to the Symphony.  In that sense, Beethoven's influence might have been "god-like", but I don't read the quote as saying "Beethoven=God."

[28Orot]

Not that I should give any credibility to Saul's argument (or Wagner, in general), but to read that as saying Beethoven is equal to god is the delusion, especially without the context in which Wagner probably meant it in.  Yes, the statement is a bit hyperbolic, but after the Ninth Symphony, there was a feeling among the more Romantically inclined composers that the Symphony (as they knew it) reached the climax after the Ninth and nothing could really come after it in the same fashion. (and Wagner, more or less, called symphonic music dead).  Berlioz's reaction to the Ninth was to add the Program to the Symphony in Symphony Fantastique, and Wagner tried to do to opera what Beethoven did to the Symphony.  In that sense, Beethoven's influence might have been "god-like", but I don't read the quote as saying "Beethoven=God."

Wagner's comment was pretty clear. So we have to take it at face value and criticize his statement. There was no 'explanation' or 'commentary' offered here by Wagner himself, so we are left with the statement. To me it sounds harsh, arrogant and absolutely delusional to equate God to any living human being who is practicing a secular form of art. Its like trying to add a religious element, a sort of divine element to something that has nothing to do with religion per say. Lets keep the two separate please. God is God, and mortals are mortals, once you mix up the two you create a blunder and this is an act of lunacy.

Beethoven Ninth Symphony is OK. Its not a big deal at all. Its music. Lets get realistic here and stop creating false idols from people, don't rob them of them humanity and limitations. The Ninth Symphony is beautiful precisely because its human and not of the heavenly realm. Its is beautiful to our souls because its speaks to our common humanity. But when you unnecessarily purposely aggrandize it more then it aught to be, you rob it from its true value.

[mc ukrneal]

Wagner's comment was pretty clear. So we have to take it at face value and criticize his statement. There was no 'explanation' or 'commentary' offered here by Wagner himself, so we are left with the statement. To me it sounds harsh, arrogant and absolutely delusional to equate God to any living human being who is practicing a secular form of art. Its like trying to add a religious element, a sort of divine element to something that has nothing to do with religion per say. Lets keep the two separate please. God is God, and mortals are mortals, once you mix up the two you create a blunder and this is an act of lunacy.

Beethoven Ninth Symphony is OK. Its not a big deal at all. Its music. Lets get realistic here and stop creating false idols from people, don't rob them of them humanity and limitations. The Ninth Symphony is beautiful precisely because its human and not of the heavenly realm. Its is beautiful to our souls because its speaks to our common humanity. But when you unnecessarily purposely aggrandize it more then it aught to be, you rob it from its true value.

If you want to criticize it, at least use the whole quote. What he said was:

"I believe in God, Mozart and Beethoven, and likewise their disciples and apostles; - I believe in the Holy Spirit and the truth of the one, indivisible Art; - I believe that this Art proceeds from God, and lives within the hearts of all illumined men; - I believe that he who once has bathed in the sublime delights of this high Art, is consecrate to Her for ever, and never can deny Her; - I believe that through Art all men are saved."

― Richard Wagner

[PaulR]

If you want to criticize it, at least use the whole quote. What he said was:

My reading of the quote, was wrong, so I apologize for that.  (I was too lazy and tired to figure out the whole quote)

[28Orot]

If you want to criticize it, at least use the whole quote. What he said was:

You have just made my point, and as I wrote in this previous paragraph:

To me it sounds harsh, arrogant and absolutely delusional to equate God to any living human being who is practicing a secular form of art. Its like trying to add a religious element, a sort of divine element to something that has nothing to do with religion per say. Lets keep the two separate please. God is God, and mortals are mortals, once you mix up the two you create a blunder and this is an act of lunacy.

Beethoven Ninth Symphony is OK. Its not a big deal at all. Its music. Lets get realistic here and stop creating false idols from people, don't rob them of them humanity and limitations. The Ninth Symphony is beautiful precisely because its human and not of the heavenly realm. Its is beautiful to our souls because its speaks to our common humanity. But when you unnecessarily purposely aggrandize it more then it aught to be, you rob it from its true value.

[Mandryka]

The website does not say the orchestrations were made by Beethoven. It says they were made by a bloke called Gerd Prengel.

Ah, thanks.

[Gurn Blanston]

You have just made my point, and as I wrote in this previous paragraph:

To me it sounds harsh, arrogant and absolutely delusional to equate God to any living human being who is practicing a secular form of art. Its like trying to add a religious element, a sort of divine element to something that has nothing to do with religion per say. Lets keep the two separate please. God is God, and mortals are mortals, once you mix up the two you create a blunder and this is an act of lunacy.

Beethoven Ninth Symphony is OK. Its not a big deal at all. Its music. Lets get realistic here and stop creating false idols from people, don't rob them of them humanity and limitations. The Ninth Symphony is beautiful precisely because its human and not of the heavenly realm. Its is beautiful to our souls because its speaks to our common humanity. But when you unnecessarily purposely aggrandize it more then it aught to be, you rob it from its true value.

"Heaven" is a construct of the collective imagination, created by humans, so it can be anything you want it to be. Music is a structured series of sounds, created by humans, so it can be anything you want it to be. So, music = heaven. QED.  Friday morning philosophy makes me sick...