Haydn Harmony Question

[Grazioso]

I figure this is probably the most apropos subforum for this question:

Am I correct in saying these are the (implied) harmonies of the opening theme of Hadyn's Surprise Symphony Andante, by bar?

C | C | F | G |C | C | Am? D7 | G

I I IV V I I vi V7/V V

If that's correct, I take it that the introduction of the non-diatonic tone and chord in the penultimate bar is a secondary dominant chord that creates a V-I resolution to G instead of the tonic?

Score:

http://erato.uvt.nl/files/imglnks/usimg/9/95/IMSLP30063-PMLP34746-Haydn_Symph94_Kalmus_minscore_2.pdf

[karlhenning]

I think the third chord is more like a ii₆ chord rather than IV.

[The new erato]

Pity Saul isn't here any longer to clarify this.

[karlhenning]

Oh, you are wicked!

[The new erato]

Oh, you are wicked!

Yes, am I not?   

[Grazioso]

I think the third chord is more like a ii₆ chord rather than IV.

First inversion? Dm sounds good with it, fwiw. The note F certainly gets a lot of emphasis the second time through.

[karlhenning]

Well the d minor chord in first inversion means that F is in the bass; and the melody goes F - D [- B - G].  If we consider the harmony as ii₆, then we needn't account for the D in the melody as a non-harmonic tone.

[Luke]

ii would tend to be a more common chord in this context that IV, anyway.

Although I, too, await confirmation from Saul on this matter.

[Grazioso]

Well the d minor chord in first inversion means that F is in the bass; and the melody goes F - D [- B - G].  If we consider the harmony as ii₆, then we needn't account for the D in the melody as a non-harmonic tone.

Thanks. As for the introduction of F# in bar 7, was I correct that it's a way to add a functioning dominant chord, allowing the melody to end on the V chord of the C major scale?

[karlhenning]

Yes, well done; that's called a Secondary Dominant, i.e., a Dominant chord of some key other than the home key.

[karlhenning]

ii would tend to be a more common chord in this context that IV, anyway.

Just so.

Although I, too, await confirmation from Saul on this matter.

You chaps are making me smile!

[Luke]

and you can look at it as a true though very brief modulation to the dominant (as you say, the F sharp creates a V-I to the dominant), swiftly followed by a return to the tonic, or you can look at it as just an inflection towards a dominant chord which, after all, retains its clear dominant function throughout. It depends on what sort of scale view of the music you are looking at. From a distance, the change of key here is so innocuous and momentary as to be effectively non-existent; look under a microscope, and, yes, the key has changed

BTW I am guessing all this from your line of notes in the OP - I haven't looked at the score you linked to, though I know what you are refering to of course. But maybe I imagining it all wrong!

[rappy]

Well, in Germany you would say it's a subdominant chord (IV) with an added 6th (leaving out the 5th). Because the I-IV-V progression is so strong that you hear the F as the fundamental note rather than a D.

So it would be:

T - S⁶ - D
(I - IV⁶ - V)

But as far as I know, in every other country of the world Karl's interpretation is the preferred one.

[Grazioso]

Well, in Germany you would say it's a subdominant chord (IV) with an added 6th (leaving out the 5th). Because the I-IV-V progression is so strong that you hear the F as the fundamental note rather than a D.

So it would be:

T - S⁶ - D
(I - IV⁶ - V)

But as far as I know, in every other country of the world Karl's interpretation is the preferred one.

Interestingly, you can play either a Dm or F chord through with that bar, and either sounds acceptable.

I'm curious what steps you should take to interpret the implied harmony of that measure. The first time through, the only notes in the measure are F and D, with the F played vertically across all the strings. The second time through (measure 11), the same holds true, but with an A added in the 2nd violins. Couldn't that emphasis on F, particularly, in the basses and cellos, be seen as implying an F chord (F being a primary chord of the scale used)? Or do you reject that since those measures contain two notes of a Dm chord and only one of F the first time through? Or is it a question of convention, with the ii customarily leading to the V?

[karlhenning]

Well, in Germany you would say it's a subdominant chord (IV) with an added 6th (leaving out the 5th). Because the I-IV-V progression is so strong that you hear the F as the fundamental note rather than a D.

That's actually jazzy (or poppy), from minimalist guitar tab / lead sheets.

[Grazioso]

That's actually jazzy (or poppy), from minimalist guitar tab / lead sheets.

Speaking of jazz and its beloved ii-V-I, I take it that progression is so common because of the way the roots descend in fifths, creating that sense of inevitable harmonic direction? E.g.

A  D  G
F  B  E
D  G  C

or in jazz, 7 chords

C  F  B
A  D G
F  B  E
D  G C

Does the fact that the roots also cycle to become the fifths, and the thirds become the 7ths, play a part in it?

[rappy]

That's actually jazzy (or poppy), from minimalist guitar tab / lead sheets.

In Germany, it's the "classical" way of thinking. It goes back to Hugo Riemann - while the II-V-I progression goes back to Rameau, who interpreted even a IV-chord as a II⁷ (leaving out the fundamental note), thus just the other way around - in order to get the cycle of fifths (and thus all chords in a dominant-tonic relationship to each following one).

[Gurn Blanston]

Not that I am a musical theoretician, but as an historian and Haydn adorer let me point out that writing a harmonic progression where you don't know exactly where you are until it's over with is a Haydn hallmark. IIRC, it was Donald Tovey who wrote something to the effect of "Haydn may very well use a II-V-I progression, but I challenge anyone to predict what his next chord will be from that". So the fact that this is at least a little puzzling for you guys should come as no surprise; from his contemporaries til now this has been true. It is one of the reasons why he is great.

[karlhenning]

I have to say that I agree more with the German approach, since I think it makes more sense to interpret harmonies as most often exhibiting the root in the lowest position whenever possibile, and I also think this is how we hear the harmony.  It strikes me as a bit indirect to call the chord a inverted D minor chord as opposed to an F major with a added/passing melodic tone (6th).

Aye, you're right, rappy.

I have to say that I agree more with the German approach, since I think it makes more sense to interpret harmonies as most often exhibiting the root in the lowest position whenever possibile, and I also think this is how we hear the harmony.  It strikes me as a bit indirect to call the chord a inverted D minor chord as opposed to an F major with a added/passing melodic tone (6th).

I don't know; how far do we carry that, Leon? is a I₆ chord in C really an e minor chord with an added sixth?

[Grazioso]

"Haydn may very well use a II-V-I progression, but I challenge anyone to predict what his next chord will be from that".

Here, it looks like the first variation after the Big Thump starts vii^o I V ? V I I IV6 (or ii⁶) V I.

I.e., F6 no 5th or Dm first inversion, or three notes

Don't know about the third bar.